KIERAN GILBERT: Joining me now Liberal MP Jamie Briggs and Labor frontbencher Richard Marles. Gentlemen good to see you both.

Jamie, the mining tax, it’s a tough spot for the Coalition isn't it when the Greens are going to say well we're siding with the Coalition and blocking the tax cuts for big business?

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, not at all. No we've said for a long time that we don't agree with the mining tax, it’s badly put together, it was a rushed deal. You'll remember when Julia Gillard knifed Kevin Rudd, that was one of the things that she tried to fix. Ultimately the Labor Party needs to bring their coalition partner into line, you know, they're in coalition with the Greens. We never entered a coalition with the Greens and the Labor Party needs their coalition partner to support them.

KIERAN GILBERT: But this is your core base, isn't it? Small business? And then on top of that the big end of town, are you going to stop the tax cut, the reduction of company tax rate?

RICHARD MARLES: No, we're going to stop the tax in the first place and we say taxing the best performing industry at this time is madness. There are genuine questions and Mathias Cormann who has done a fantastic job in pulling this apart has shown that this tax like the carbon tax won't earn enough revenue to pay for the spending that they've already announced from it. So again there'll be another black hole in the Labor budget, more debt, more deficit along with all the waste. We say don't put the tax on in the first place and you won't need the relief. A tax increase doesn't then amount for a tax cut. Now if the Labor Party want to get this through they need to go and talk to their bed fellows the Greens and work that together.

KIERAN GILBERT: Richard, that was the point I made with Penny Wong a bit earlier that if the Government wanted to – if you were so committed to this reduction in the tax cut for the big end of town, the Prime Minister could have said okay put both in the same legislation and don't allow the opportunity for the Greens to back one and not the other.

RICHARD MARLES: The Greens make their own decision, that’s the fact of the matter here and we've been laying out the legislative path. The reason they're not being dealt with at the same time is because there is the Business Working Group Review which is looking at what other measures might come in, including the tax cut to the company tax rate; indeed, the small business package where maybe there’s something else in relation to that. That’s why we're doing it in the way we are doing it. The Greens are going to make their own decision.

But, you know, Kieran there was a day when you would have thought the world would have had to have stopped turning on its axis and actually reverse to see the Liberal Party out there opposing tax cuts in the company tax rate. But, not under this Opposition. They are the biggest opposers, the biggest sayers of no that we have ever seen in Australian politics and now they're saying no to their own core beliefs.

KIERAN GILBERT: But they believe that the mining tax is a flawed proposal as you heard Jamie articulate that it doesn't have enough to pay for what you're promising.

RICHARD MARLES: And we've made the argument in relation to why it’s important to put in place a tax in relation to mining, given the revenues it’s bringing into this country. There’s no question that the mining industry can afford it and it’s something which has been worked through with the mining industry.

JAMIE BRIGGS: But state governments tax the mining industry so…

RICHARD MARLES: Yes, but…

JAMIE BRIGGS: So they don't go without tax . They've been taxed by the state governments since the beginning of federation.

RICHARD MARLES: And you know that they are taxed inefficiently because they're taxed on the basis of production rather than being taxed on the basis of profit and that’s what we're doing and we've worked this through with them…

JAMIE BRIGGS: Ah, that’s not true…

RICHARD MARLES: But we are looking at making sure…

JAMIE BRIGGS: Western Australia disagrees completely.

RICHARD MARLES: Well, we're working it through with the mining industry. We're making sure that we get a bigger revenue for the whole country from the mining boom so that states like yours and mine which are doing it tough in terms of an increase in the Australian dollar – which is a function of the mining boom – get a benefit from the mining boom. But can I just say…

JAMIE BRIGGS: There’s an interesting point here…

RICHARD MARLES: You know when Jamie starts going to phrases like Green coalition and knifing, you know that he’s grabbing for old faithful because at the end of the day the Liberal Party is actually going to stand up in the Senate and vote against tax cuts to the company tax.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Well, old faithful is the Labor Party’s in government because of the Greens, Kieran, I mean Richard conveniently forgets this. They are in coalition. There’s an agreement. We remember…

RICHARD MARLES: It’s not a coalition.

JAMIE BRIGGS: We remember the photo, we had Julia Gillard, Bob Brown sitting there, Sarah Hanson-Young, Scott Ludlam standing behind…

RICHARD MARLES: The Greens support supply…

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, no, no they're in coalition.

RICHARD MARLES: …and the Greens support confidence. It’s not the same as a coalition.

JAMIE BRIGGS: If the Labor Party – mind you, and this is a point Mathias Cormann has made up hill and down dale for months. If the Labor Party believe so much in their mining tax, release the modelling. Release the modelling today. Lets see the numbers. They are hiding the modelling because they know it’s not going to achieve the revenue forecast that Swanee’s put in his budget…

RICHARD MARLES: Well, that’s not right.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Mathias Cormann has completely exposed this. You will not release the modelling because you know…

KIERAN GILBERT: Why is that…

JAMIE BRIGGS: …there’s a massive hole.

KIERAN GILBERT: Is it because of – well what’s the argument that you've got to not release it?

RICHARD MARLES: We've gone through this in enormous detail and we've gone through it…

JAMIE BRIGGS: But you won't release it publicly.

RICHARD MARLES: …and we've gone through it with the mining industry and the figures are there. But the fact of the matter is…

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, no, no, release it publicly…

RICHARD MARLES: …you can – no, no, you can wave your magic wand and you can try and fill the room full of smoke, at the end of the day the issue that you are going to have to deal with is the fact that you are now saying you're going to be voting against tax cuts to the company tax rate.

JAMIE BRIGGS: The only smoky room…

KIERAN GILBERT: You'll be voting with the Greens as well in the Senate…

JAMIE BRIGGS: The only smoky room is…

KIERAN GILBERT: Well you won't be but your colleagues will be.

JAMIE BRIGGS: The only smoky room is the smoke-filled room which is the Labor Party heavy hitters the Greens heavy hitters making the decision on how they're running the country, that’s the only smoke-filled room we have in this place.

KIERAN GILBERT: Bob Carr is now obviously the Foreign Minister. He began the day yesterday having a whack at Tony Abbott with characteristic Bob Carr flair.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Sussex Street comes to Canberra. I mean, that’s the thing, isn't it, Sussex Street’s in Canberra? We've got Michael Egan…

KIERAN GILBERT: You don't think he brings anything else to the table?

JAMIE BRIGGS: Well, I think Michael Egan was here yesterday so it'll be interesting to see, maybe he'll be the Finance Minister next week. We'll have, you know, maybe Penny'll go off and do something else and we'll have Michael Egan come. We might have – Steve Bracks might come and be the manufacturing – he might step aside, Richard, and Steve Bracks can come. We can get all the old failed state Labor premiers to come to Canberra to try and pick up these…

RICHARD MARLES: This is a man with enormous gravitas and you know it and every Liberal in New South Wales knows it.

JAMIE BRIGGS: If he’s got gravitas why is he…

RICHARD MARLES: This is a man who led a great government in New South Wales and he’s going to be a great Foreign Minister for this country.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Well, then, he should talk about foreign policy and not get into some sort of…

RICHARD MARLES: He has been talking about foreign policy.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Oh, his first line yesterday at the doors was some pathetic attempt at having a crack at Tony Abbott who, by the way, is doing an outstanding job at holding an appalling government, getting worse, to account.

RICHARD MARLES: You've done well there, Jamie, but I know that when you saw those lines you were smiling like the rest of us, the flair that the guy’s bringing to town. I mean, he has been…

KIERAN GILBERT: What about the prospect of promoting someone like Arthur Sindinos though? The Labor Party obviously believes that Bob Carr brings a lot to the role. You disagree. I'm sure…

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, no, I think Bob Carr is – I think Bob Carr has got a lot of talent and he certainly lifts the intellect in the Cabinet quite substantially. You could also lift the intellect in the Cabinet by just sacking Swanee too but, anyway, but look, Arthur is an extremely talented…

KIERAN GILBERT: He should be on the front bench, shouldn't he?

JAMIE BRIGGS: We've got a great front bench and we've got a really good back bench and it’s a great competitive environment because it breeds better results. You've got a very experienced front bench, 16 former Howard government ministers on the front bench who know what they're doing and you've got, you know, people like Arthur, you've got people like Dan Tehan and you've got people like Kelly O'Dwyer, you've got a very experienced and very talented back bench coming through…

KIERAN GILBERT: It’s competitive if the coach changes selection but there has been no changes.

RICHARD MARLES: Kieran, look, I'd hire Jamie, no question and you'd hire Kelly and there is some talent there on the back bench.

JAMIE BRIGGS: That’s not going to help you, mate.

RICHARD MARLES: But…

JAMIE BRIGGS: Not going to help you.

RICHARD MARLES: And there is some talent there on the back bench but you wouldn't hire any of the front benchers there. I mean, the front bench of the Liberal Party is completely hopeless and the gap between the personnel there and the likes of Bob Carr, of Stephen Smith, of Wayne Swan…

JAMIE BRIGGS: This constant Labor negativity has got to stop. This constant Labor negativity…

RICHARD MARLES: It is an enormous gap and we need to see the likes of Jamie up there on the front bench.

KIERAN GILBERT: All right, let’s look at this CSIRO report out today and the Bureau of Meteorology, how do you think that’s going to feed into the broader debate on the carbon pricing, Jamie? Do you think that this is going to evolve, this debate, beyond just the carbon tax? Because obviously, if you look at the report out by the Bureau and the CSIRO today, it’s a real issue that we need to deal with.

JAMIE BRIGGS: Both parties have got policies which deal with this issue. Our policy is to have direct action which reduces the carbon emissions into the atmosphere, the right policy at the right time.

We don't have a great, big, new tax which is so far outside of the world’s movement on this. You know, you've seen story after story in the last few days about the $23 price is miles above what any other country is doing.

It’s going to be – it’s a reverse tariff, in effect. It’s going to make it harder for our industries to compete, at the same time as not doing what we can for the environment.

We've got a policy, on the other hand, that reduces five per cent of emissions by 2020, with direct action, the policy that Greg Hunt has articulated day in, day out.

KIERAN GILBERT: The problem for the Government is that the Coalition has been very effective in separating the two issues. You've got this big mean tax on the one hand but then the report, climate issues, on the other which has been confirmed today by the peak environmental bodies.

RICHARD MARLES: I think we've got to call a spade a spade here, Kieran. Climate change is happening and that is fact. What we know about the Opposition is that half of their party room completely deny that fact. It’s not a question of belief, they simply deny that fact.

KIERAN GILBERT: But they have policies to deal with it, so…

RICHARD MARLES: No, no, no…

KIERAN GILBERT: People are allowed to have an opinion that questions climate change. There’s no law against that, is there?

JAMIE BRIGGS: Well, the modern Labor Party. Martin Ferguson’s held into a very tight ball.

RICHARD MARLES: Well, I'm interested in this. If what we're saying – if what we're saying is that it is legitimate to be questioning climate change in the context of this debate, within – and that’s where the Coalition are at, I reckon they need to come out…

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, no, no…

RICHARD MARLES: …and absolutely say that. Climate change is a fact. It’s a fact. It’s not a question of belief or non-belief. It is happening. I'm not sure whether it’s legitimate to be out there and saying two plus two doesn't equal four. Climate change is a fact.

But what we've got in there is half the party room failing to acknowledge it and so you don't get policies from the other side. That’s rubbish. What you get is a dog’s breakfast, a dog’s breakfast which will actually see carbon emissions rise and every household in this country slugged with $1300 in order to pay for that rise. That’s what’s actually going on in terms of the Opposition.

JAMIE BRIGGS: I think this constant negativity is really dragging down this debate. I mean, we've got an alternative here. We've been arguing that alternative now for three years. Labor’s got its great, big, new tax.

KIERAN GILBERT: Not everyone backs it, though, do they, the likes of Dennis Jensen and other colleagues?

JAMIE BRIGGS: Look, there are people…

KIERAN GILBERT: They think it’s rubbish.

JAMIE BRIGGS: You would be denying what is quite obviously true. There are people on our side who question the science. There’s no doubt about that. There are, by the way, questions on the Labor Party side too. They're not allowed to say that publicly though because they will face the faceless men and they'll be sanctioned appropriately whereas on our side, of course, we have the ability to be able to argue – contest ideas which is what democracy is all about.

RICHARD MARLES: So you're saying the science is questionable.

JAMIE BRIGGS: I don't…

RICHARD MARLES: That’s what you're saying.

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, I don't say the science is questionable. What I'm saying, there are some people on our side of politics who do say that, indeed, but we have policy.

RICHARD MARLES: You're questioning it.

JAMIE BRIGGS: No, Richard…

KIERAN GILBERT: Do you think though that there needs to be – I know your view on economics – do you think there needs to be a market mechanism at some point, beyond the direct action scheme?

JAMIE BRIGGS: In effect, well, we are – let’s have a look at this. This is not an issue that Australia can solve by itself, right? We are a very small percentage of the world’s emissions. Now, we are – what we should be doing is doing what we can until there is a global agreement on moving forward. Now, we've seen the European scheme – in the current economic environment the price has tanked so their $23 false price is putting our industries at so much of a disadvantage.

KIERAN GILBERT: So you're open to a market scheme but once the rest of the world gets on board as well?

JAMIE BRIGGS: The rest of the world has got to move…

KIERAN GILBERT: This $23 price…

RICHARD MARLES: So why do you want the direct action?

KIERAN GILBERT: The $23 price is way above…

JAMIE BRIGGS: Because it’s taking action soon. Right? It’s taking action before the world starts to move.

KIERAN GILBERT: So talk me through the $23 price though. You're wedded to that.

RICHARD MARLES: We've got a Liberal Party now which is opposing tax cuts to the company tax rate and which is supporting state intervention in terms of picking winners about how to construct a, you know…

JAMIE BRIGGS: [Indistinct]

KIERAN GILBERT: We've got to go. I'll let you guys go and get a coffee. Richard Marles, Jamie Briggs, thanks for that, gents, and that’s all for AM Agenda.

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