Patricia Karvelas: For more from the government, I spoke to frontbencher and Minister for Multicultural Affairs Anne Aly a short time ago.
Minister, welcome to the program.
Minister Anne Aly: Thank you.
Karvelas: Why was today the right day for Australia to recognise Palestinian statehood?
Aly: Well, I think the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister have been leading up to this for some time. We have said for some time that this is ultimately something that we would do. The question was not ‘if’, but ‘when’. The announcement today, I think, is a pretty historic announcement. It comes at a time when we're seeing the absolute devastation in Gaza, and as the Foreign Minister said, I believe it was just a few days ago, if we don't move on recognition, there will be no Palestine left to recognise.
Karvelas. So, I want to take you to that. Has the government's decision to announce this today, is it linked to the expansion of the war effort that was announced on Friday by the Netanyahu Government?
Aly: Oh, look, I don't, I wouldn't say it is directly linked. I think there were a number of processes leading up to this, including conversations that the Prime Minister had with Benjamin Netanyahu, but he also had a telephone conversation with the Palestinian Authority, just on some of the assurances about what this would mean and assuring as well that a recognition of Palestine from Australia's point of view would mean something. It would be something that would have an impact, be stable and contribute to the security in the region. So, that is some of the conversations that he had there with the Palestinian Authority, which he has already outlined in some of the conditions that they spoke about as well. I think that, you know, this has been building up for some time.
Karvelas: Have the government's frustrations, though, at the Netanyahu Government's actions in Gaza, broadly contributed to the acceleration? Because when the Prime Minister spoke about this, he said it wasn't imminent, and yet it's come quite quickly. You know, we're not in September, we're not at the UN General Assembly yet. The decision's been made. Is it the broader context that's led us here?
Aly: Well, I think it's pretty obvious, Patricia, that the world, including people in Israel, are pretty frustrated with where this is going and what the endgame is. It's very clear that there needed to be a circuit breaker. And I think from Australia's point of view, the recognition of Palestine, along with our like-mindeds, we've got, France has announced, the UK recently announced as well, you know, that kind of collective effort not just in the moves that we've made thus far in terms of the votes that we've taken in the UN, the statements that we've put out. But now, also in recognising Palestine, there is a clear indication here that there needs to be a circuit breaker.
Something needs to give because the Israeli Government is just going from worse to worse in starving Palestinian children, in killing Palestinian innocents in Gaza, and something needs to give. There needs to be a circuit breaker. Now, you know, some might argue that recognising Palestine has little impact there. I believe that it will have an impact, because I believe it has come at a time at which it will have the most impact.
Karvelas: Explain to me how you think the time actually would create the most impact.
Aly: Well, I think that, you know, it's the time and the conditions that we're looking at here. It's very clear, as I said, that there needs to be a circuit breaker, and now is the time for that circuit breaker to occur. The world, as we've seen with the march across the Harbour Bridge in Sydney, the world, including Australia, has just about, you know, pretty much had enough and said, now enough is enough. And I think in terms of the kinds of conditions that were put around it, the way in which we now kind of have those assurances from the Palestinian Authority, we know that recognition is just not tokenistic. We know that recognition is actually a pathway to a two-state solution and a pathway, we hope, to lasting peace in the region.
Karvelas: How about the conditions on the Palestinian Authority? Would you revoke statehood if the conditions are not met? For instance, on elections being held in a year and the various other restrictions, education, you want big changes to the Palestinian Authority. Is there a consequence if they don't meet those metrics?
Aly: Well, I think at this stage that's rather a hypothetical, if I might say. I think at this stage it's not, you know, there's also discussions with the Arab League. So, the Arab League has a role to play here, the region has a role to play here. And I'm optimistic that the Palestinian Authority can make those changes, that they can undertake the steps that are required to have a secure and stable governance framework in both the West Bank and in Gaza.
Karvelas: And the progress on commitments is going to be tied to the fuller recognition. Can you explain what sorts of things? Are we talking here embassy, passports, being linked to certain reforms?
Aly: Well, I'm not privy to those specific details, Patricia, but I imagine that, you know, if you look at the kind of the conditions that are required for statehood, and there are many models for that, including the Montevideo Protocols, for example, one of them is a stable and secure form of governance. And I think that's the first step here is ensuring that for peace to occur and for lasting peace and a sustainable peace, you need to have a governance framework, and the Palestinian Authority is the best opportunity for that. For the Palestinian Authority to have a framework in which they hold elections, in which they meet all of those conditions, recognising also the right of Israel to exist, their commitment to a two-state solution, that is the right pathway to a stable and secure future for the people in Gaza and people in the West Bank.
Karvelas: Opposition Leader Sussan Ley has released a statement this afternoon on the government's announcement, saying that the Coalition has serious concerns about recognising Palestine in a way that puts Australia at odds with the United States, our most important ally and the most consequential player in Gaza. It is true, isn't it, that they are the most consequential? What's your response to the critique that we've gone in the wrong order by the Opposition?
Aly: Well, I think it's a worn critique that really holds no weight if you ask me. Australia makes its decisions. We're a sovereign nation, we're a sovereign government, we make our decisions. And you know, all of these things were weighed up before the announcement was made and before the decision was made. We're not going this alone. The UK, France, over 100 countries have already recognised Palestine. We are not going this alone. And you know, the message I think to Israel is that we are recognising Palestine because we believe in a two-state solution and we are working towards that two-state solution. We are doing our bit to work towards that two-state solution.
Karvelas: And we haven't framed it as a punishment the way the United Kingdom has. Is that very deliberate? Can you talk to me about that thinking?
Aly: Well, I think it's wrong to frame it as a punishment. And I think, you know, I was reading a piece that quoted the former Israeli Prime Minister Olmert, who said that, you know, Palestinian recognition, a state of Palestine, is a gift to the region. And he's right, it is a gift to the region because it is the way forward. It is the way to security, to stability and to ensuring peace, to ensuring that the children of Gaza have a chance, have a chance to live, have a chance to live beyond their first year of life. You know, this is, you know, speaking quite, quite personally here. This is pretty momentous.
Karvelas: Well, if we can go to the personal, because I think it is significant. You are now, Ed Husic, of course, is no longer in the Cabinet. You're the only Muslim Australian in the cabinet, sitting in that Cabinet table on an issue that really, as you know, is incredibly important to lots of Arab Australians and Muslim Australians. How did, how did that hit you as you sat there?
Aly: It is a bit emotional. Look, it is a really momentous moment. But I also don't want us to take our eye off the fact that there is a really, really dire humanitarian situation in Gaza as well. We recently announced also another $20 million, bringing our aid into the region up to $130 million, over $130 million. I think that, you know, the recognition of Palestine, as I said, is a momentous occasion working towards peace and security, a lasting peace and security. And I think someone once said, you know, Palestinian people live between hope and despair. This is giving them hope, but let's not forget that in Gaza, they're still living in despair. And we still need to do everything that we can to ensure that aid gets into Gaza, that it's distributed into Gaza, and that the starvation and the killing stops.
Karvelas: Israel's ambassador to Australia says that this is going to be seen as rewarding Hamas, and it will undermine Israel's security. That view is, is not just held by Israel. There are other groups who have shared that view today, too, that it's a reward for Hamas for their actions on October the 7th. Is there a risk that it would be viewed that way?
Aly: Look, people can say that. I don't agree with that, and I think that a majority of people don't agree with that. How is this rewarding Hamas when we've been very clear that a future Palestinian state, Hamas will play no role in that. When we've been very clear that the governance framework moving forward will involve the Palestinian Authority, and when Arab countries in the region have been very clear on that as well. So, I think this is just a way of trying to, I guess, dismiss it or undermine the efforts towards peace, if I'm honest.
Karvelas: Anne Aly, thank you for joining us.
Aly: Thank you so much, Patricia.