Patricia Karvelas: Anne Aly is the Minister for Multicultural Affairs, International Development and Small Business, and is my guest. Minister, welcome to the program.
Dr Anne Aly: Thank you, Patricia.
Patricia Karvelas: We have to start there, and then we'll get on to some other issues that we're focusing on here. The Business Council wants a few elements of the environment laws changed. They are still wanting bipartisanship. Are you prepared as a government at sort of cabinet level where these fights are being had to water down the bill further to meet their demands.
Dr Anne Aly: Well, as you heard there with all of those grabs that you had, pretty much everyone's got an opinion around this bill. We're focused on getting the bill passed and getting the balance right between ensuring that our environment is protected but also that there is confidence for industry as well. You know, you'll be familiar, and perhaps your viewers are also familiar with the Samuel Review that recommended strongly that there be a review of these laws that, frankly, are no longer fit for purpose. They are, you know, laws that were drafted back in the 90s.
And, you know, following on from that review and undertaking the recommendations of that review, one of those recommendations of that review was that the bill not be split, that splitting the bill would water down our environmental protections, but also not give that certainty to business.
Patricia Karvelas: You are a frontbencher but also from WA. We all know WA kind of flexed your muscle, if you like, or the Premier did and clearly believes that that's a view in the community. So given that, I'm going to ask a very straight question.
Dr Anne Aly: Okay.
Patricia Karvelas: Do you prefer a deal with the Liberals over the Greens?
Dr Anne Aly: I prefer a deal that's going to get us to that position where we have an EPBC Act that looks after the environment and that gives certainty to –
Patricia Karvelas: Would it be your preference, given the WA point I make, to have that deal with the Liberal Party?
Dr Anne Aly: Well, I'm not the one making the deal, so I'll –
Patricia Karvelas: No, but you were – and you echoed some of Roger Cook's concern. You didn't shy away from that, so.
Dr Anne Aly: No, that's right, and, you know, given that I am not the one making the deal, what I see is that there are two pathways to making a deal – one with the Greens and one with the Libs. And I believe that Murray Watt, as the minister responsible, has done a fantastic job in negotiating thus far. What we want to do is get a bill that does what the review said it needs to do, and that is to bring our laws up to date. We want to get that passed, and we want to get that passed as soon as possible through either of those avenues, as long as it delivers what Australians want, what Australians need, which is environmental protections and certainty to the industry.
Patricia Karvelas: Minister, you were the former Childcare Minister before you took on your new role and came into cabinet. Four Corners tonight has a pretty explosive story just exposing how deep rooted the infiltration from paedophiles is into this sector. I've got a really straight question on that as well: were you aware of the extent of this when you were minister?
Dr Anne Aly: When I was minister, no. When I was minister. I will say, though, that very aware that child safety was top priority and remains top priority in early childhood education and care and that the government has taken a number of steps towards ensuring child safety, among them the early childhood education register, which is something that I put into train very early on in my term as the previous minister. Child safety – and let me also make this very clear: that the revelations that are coming out are absolutely devastating – absolutely devastating.
Patricia Karvelas: Does it worry you, though, that you say you didn't know the extent, but there are obviously many documents that Four Corners has scoured through and obtained to make this case about how serious it is. Was that because you weren't given the right information? Look, I'm just wondering how this, at the highest levels and then at a state level, was missed as a critical and crisis issue.
Dr Anne Aly: Yeah, I believe that we acted swiftly to rectify all of that, though. I believe that, you know, as soon as the first revelations came out, Jason Clare is the Minister for Education and myself, as the minister responsible for early childhood education at the time, were very swift in conducting a review of safety. And we now have a number of programs and policies in place to ensure child safety, but also that very clear message that early childhood education and care is about education, not about the profit. And if providers are doing the wrong thing or are only in it to make a profit and don't care about child safety, then they need to vacate the space, so to speak. So as soon as we did learn about it, we were very, very swift in undertaking every action that we possibly could to ensure child safety.
Patricia Karvelas: But even Jason Clare's conceded he should have acted earlier.
Dr Anne Aly: Well, we should have known earlier. That's the thing. And the thing is, the framework for child quality and child safety, you've got the commonwealth framework and the state frameworks, so it's a kind of two-level framework where the commonwealth kind of sets the quality standards, and then you have the state regulators doing the monitoring and so on and so forth. Obviously, there's something going wrong there, and that's what needs to be rectified.
Patricia Karvelas: Just finally on this – because I know it's not your portfolio anymore, but you are very across it as an issue.
Dr Anne Aly: Of course.
Patricia Karvelas: The Productivity Commission recommended a commission with teeth be established to deal with the sector. Government hasn't made a final decision on that, but it does it seem to you that the case is very clearly now been made for that?
Dr Anne Aly: Look, I think in terms of child safety, there are practical things that we can do that will have a practical impact that I think are much more effective - low-hanging fruit, so to speak – that will be much more effective than another kind of layer of regulation or bureaucracy.
Patricia Karvelas: So you're not –
Dr Anne Aly: Well, I will just also clarify as well, Patricia, that the Productivity Commission recommendation about a commission was really about universal early childhood education and care.
Patricia Karvelas: That's right.
Dr Anne Aly: So that commission would be responsible to oversee the rollout of –
Patricia Karvelas: But you could make alterations to it so it could have that kind of power and influence.
Dr Anne Aly: You could, but I do believe that right now the important thing is to ensure that what we have, the mechanisms that we do have, are working to ensure child safety, and that is what the government is doing.
Patricia Karvelas: The Prime Minister is overseas for a couple of key meetings. He's not in the parliament this week – it's a bit weird, actually, question time without him. How did it go for you? Was it a bit odd?
Dr Anne Aly: No, question time was question time, I guess.
Patricia Karvelas: Okay, you're like another day, another dollar.
Dr Anne Aly: Another question time.
Patricia Karvelas: Okay. But on his raising of the issue in the South China Sea – and clearly what we have said is inappropriate from China – he's raised that with the Chinese Premier. We don't know what the Chinese Premier's response is. But clearly this relationship is much more difficult to execute than, you know, we thought. Should the Prime Minister be telling us exactly where this relationship is at, what the response was?
Dr Anne Aly: Well, I think the relationship is clear. I mean, every minister that you've probably ever interviewed has said that we will work with China, but, you know, we will raise concerns where we need to raise concerns. Just on these two meetings with ASEAN and APEC, I just want to stress how important these two forums are, but also the fact that Australia has a seat at the table at these forums and what we're using this seat at the table for. We're using this seat at the table, yes, to ensure our regional security and economic prosperity, but also our domestic security and our domestic economic prosperity, too. If you a have a look at ASEAN, for example, 700 million people, fourth largest economy in the world, You know, by 2040 it will be the fourth largest economy in the world. If you have a look at APEC, one in four Australian jobs relies on trade, and 75 per cent of our trade is with APEC. These meetings really are also about ensuring the future and the present of Australian jobs.
Patricia Karvelas: But raising concerns with China and managing that, it seems that China is provoking Australia.
Dr Anne Aly: Well, you know, diplomatic relationships with countries at varying times can be challenging. And I believe that our government has done substantial work within our region to repair the relationship with China, to restore our critical trade with China. That has really helped Australian industries here. But we will speak up when we need to speak up in Australia's interests.
Patricia Karvelas: I just have to ask on your hat – I know I've moved around on a few issues –
Dr Anne Aly: I've got a lot of hats today with you.
Patricia Karvelas: And I've called them all hats – let's call it something else – a cap.
Dr Anne Aly: Tiaras?
Patricia Karvelas: Tiara! With your tiara on, just looking at multiculturalism, you know, that's a pretty key part of how our country operates.
Dr Anne Aly: Absolutely.
Patricia Karvelas: Both of us being products of it. It's how we operate this country. But you've been – we've now had a ceasefire in Gaza – it happened while I was away – and I think that's a welcome thing.
Dr Anne Aly: Absolutely.
Patricia Karvelas: Have you seen some of the tensions lower since that ceasefire in our own community?
Dr Anne Aly: A bit hard to say because it's really early days yet, and the ceasefire is very fragile and tentative. So I note that, like, there are still some protests going on, although they've come down a little bit. I do believe that there is some kind of easing of the tension, and that's inevitable because when you have tensions flaring whenever there are global events, as those global events pass or progress, then, you know, there may be another global event. But, yeah, I think so. I think also, you know, I was in India recently, and I do have to say that the reception that I got in India was just how grateful the Indian people were for how our government responded to those protests.
Patricia Karvelas: Let me just pick you up on that. So you're saying that when you were in India, the way that this debate about Indian Australians had been had was raised with you?
Dr Anne Aly: Yes. And people were very grateful for the response that our government had in not tolerating any kind of racism in those protests and in defending our Indian diaspora. Because our diasporas are really important keys to our relations with foreign governments as well. Those people-to-people links are bridges between us and other countries. And it was really heartening to see that that message had gotten through very clearly to the people in India.
Patricia Karvelas: There's just one more question relating to this. I know it's Tony Burke's main role, but you are assisting very much in this. This is the anti-Semitism report, the Islamophobia report.
Dr Anne Aly: Yes.
Patricia Karvelas: When are we going to see a comprehensive government response to those?
Dr Anne Aly: Well, you know, we're currently undertaking that. And so we're looking at both reports, looking at what we've already done, looking at what we can do. And that's underway.
Patricia Karvelas: Is this by the end of the year?
Dr Anne Aly: I don't want to put a time frame on it because it is a big piece of work, and it's an incredibly important piece of work, and I think it's important that we get it right. The efforts that Aftab Malik, as the Islamophobia Envoy, and Jillian Segal, as the anti-Semitism Envoy, have put into the reports deserve us to take our time and be thoughtful and comprehensive in our response.
Patricia Karvelas: Minister, thank you for travelling on many different topics with me. I appreciate it.
Dr Anne Aly: Thank you so much.