Patricia Karvelas, Host: For more on the news of the day, Assistant Foreign Minister Matt Thistlethwaite joins us. Welcome to the program.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affaris and Trade: G'day, Patricia.
Karvelas: The Prime Minister suggested today the Budget was about combating populism, but the polls show it has been received poorly. In fact, it's very unpopular. So, has it failed?
Assistant Minister: No, not at all. We have a crisis in our housing market in Australia, that's a fact. And it's being fuelled by unfair tax concessions that have encouraged people to invest in property as an asset to be bought and sold for profit, rather than a roof over people's heads. And we've heard what Australians have had to say. In my electorate, we're seeing a lot of teachers, a lot of nurses, a lot of police officers moving out of the area and can't afford to live in the community they work in. So, I know we have a crisis and that's why I think the Budget is the right thing to do to even up the playing field, to make sure that first home buyers don't have to compete with investors. And we're starting to see some anecdotal evidence already from real estate agents that that's working.
Karvelas: Ok, you say people are frustrated by this. Are those people dancing with voting with One Nation? What have you heard on the ground?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think that the Prime Minister is right, that a lot of Australians are really feeling the pinch at the moment. We've had increases in interest rates, you've had the exorbitant cost of housing throughout Australia and a taxation system that they feel is stacked against them. So, if you're a PAYG income earner, you feel that no matter how hard you work, you can't get ahead. Yet you see people who are buying and selling assets, getting massive tax concessions, making millions of dollars, trading those assets. So, people think that the system is unfair and in many respects they are rebelling. They're saying that they want government to change that and that's exactly what we're doing. We've heard what people have had to say. We know the system's broken, so we're changing. We're reforming negative gearing, we're reforming the capital gains tax discount, we're putting a 30% tax on trusts so people can't shift income to avoid paying their fair share of property of income tax. We're actually listening to what Australians have had to say and we're reforming the system for them.
Karvelas: Ok. You say, you know, people are disgruntled and they're looking at these other options, and this is one of the key reasons. Housing has been a key reason. It comes up all the time. Does it worry you, then, that you say you've kind of announced a policy that deals with it and yet people don't appear to be receiving it? Well, I mean, that is, there's evidence in some polling, not just one off, but that people are not getting your message. They don't, they don't agree with what you're selling.
Assistant Minister: It doesn't worry me because tax reform is difficult and it does take a long time to explain it to people and to get the message through. But I'm feeling that we're starting to see people understand, firstly, the philosophy behind what Labor is doing and the details of how we're going to achieve that. And I've spoken to some real estate agents in my electorate who have said that anecdotally, they're hearing on weekends now when they're auctioning existing properties, they're going to first home buyers, whereas in the past they would have been competing against people who were looking to own investment property backed by a large tax concession funded through working people working hard to provide that tax concession. So, now you're starting to see real estate agents saying first home buyers are being able to get into the market on existing properties, whereas they may have been outbid by investors in the past. And that's what we wanted to achieve. It's early days, we know that, but the anecdotal evidence is there is. It's starting to work.
Karvelas: One of the big issues of the week has been the AUKUS agreement. Ed Husic went on the record to raise his concerns about the AUKUS agreement. He's been dismissed by lots of frontbenchers on your side. Is it wise to try and shut down dissent in the Labor Party on something that so many in your rank and file agree with Ed Husic on?
Assistant Minister: Well, I don't agree that Ed's been dismissed. He certainly raised the issue in the Labor Caucus. I can't go into the details of that, but there was a discussion, as there always is when any member of the Labor Caucus raises a matter. And publicly, the Defence Minister and others have pointed out that the decision that was made last weekend at the Shangri-La Dialogue is consistent with the optimal pathway that was agreed and announced by the Prime Minister with the Prime Minister of the UK and President Biden in 2023. It's consistent with and nothing has changed in terms of the delivery of the optimal pathway, and that is for Australia to secure three Virginia-class submarines. They'll be block 4 submarines instead of a mix of block 4 and block 6, which actually means that there's consistency there in the training and the crewing of those submarines, and indeed in the maintenance, which will reduce costs over time.
Karvelas: Ok, but Pat Conroy actually said he was being disingenuous. Is he being disingenuous?
Assistant Minister: I'm not going to get into debates about, you know, who's wrong and who's right. People in the Labor Party are entitled to raise their views and always have and always will.
Karvelas: But is it disingenuous for him to raise his concerns about this?
Assistant Minister: Well, no, it's certainly, it's right for anyone to raise their concerns and there's appropriate channels to do that in the Labor Party, and we had a discussion about that this week. But the important thing is that the AUKUS program remains on track. It's going to be the largest industrial endeavour in Australia ever undertaken in our history. 20,000 jobs are going to be created. But most importantly, Patricia, it provides us with the capability to meet the objective that's outlined in our National Defence Strategy of deterrence. And that's pretty important in a region and an international community where we're facing Internet international increase in strategic competition and uncertainty. So, Australia needs to have that capability to deter nuclear propelled, conventionally armed submarines provide us with that deterrence value.
Karvelas: What do you make of One Nation's housing policy gaffe today?
Assistant Minister: Bumbling Barnaby, he couldn't explain the details of his own party's policy, and he had to cut the interview short and go and ring someone to find out what the details were. We're still not even clear what One Nation's policy actually is. The Senator Bell that went out to defend it this morning said it was still applied to certain visa holders. Well, which visa holders is he referring to? Are they going to be kicking Australians out of their homes? And I think that they need to really explain, particularly for Australians who may be married to or have a spouse who's not on a permanent visa, whether they're going to be kicked out of their homes. These are all of the important issues that Australians rely upon political parties to provide them with details before they announce policies. And it's clear that One Nation haven't done their homework, and they don't know what their policy is.
Karvelas: Just on another issue that was ventilated through the Senate estimates process, Foreign Minister Penny Wong says she believes the Australian women who have alleged they were sexually assaulted and beaten by Israeli soldiers after being detained as part of the humanitarian flotilla attempting to bring aid to Gaza. She believes them. She says those Australian women want to meet with her. Shouldn't the Minister, or at least even your office, be meeting with them?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, well, we certainly believe the allegations that they've made and they're very, very serious. And that's why we've called on Israeli officials to thoroughly investigate them as quickly as possible. I understand a request was made to meet with the Foreign Minister yesterday. Obviously she was in Senate estimates, but we're happy to meet with these people next week. We'll meet with them as quickly as we possibly can to ensure that they get the support from our government that they deserve and need in this difficult situation. These are shocking allegations. They're very, very serious. They need to be taken seriously by the Israeli officials and investigated thoroughly.
Karvelas: Ok, so are you facilitating through Penny Wong's office, your office. Could you give me more detail about exactly what that's going to look like next week?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, well, there have been engagements already with the individuals involved through DFAT officials, but if they want to meet with myself or the Minister, we're happy to facilitate that next week, we'll work with them on an appropriate time, but we're very happy to meet with them.
Karvelas: And just again, on that, when you say to help them, what sort of help would you provide?
Assistant Minister: Well, the help will be ensuring that we are working with Israeli government officials to put the case for these investigations to occur. As I said, they're very serious allegations. We take them very seriously. We certainly believe what these Australians have said about their treatment. We all saw the shocking footage of the Israeli Minister Gvir taunting these people who are being held in certainly inappropriate conduct. And we believe the allegations that have been made, so we want them investigated thoroughly.
Karvelas: Just finally, Australia's eSafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant, has put herself at odds with your government over its under 16 social media ban. She says she was not really keen on it and it was based on legislation that you drafted very quickly. If the person enforcing that social media ban thinks it isn't working well, that says a lot, doesn't it?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think the most important thing is that the Australian people think that it's working well and the Australian people support it. And that's the reason why we did it. We heard the concerns and of parents, particularly those who have tragically, unfortunately, lost children to bullying and inappropriate behaviour on social media for people who are kids really, and shouldn't be exposed to those types of behaviours. That's why we put the ban in place. And Patricia, I've been at a number of international forums recently associated with my trade portfolio, where Ministers have come up to me and said, congratulations on the social media ban. We're looking to do the exact same thing in our country and they want to talk to us about how we implemented it and how it's going. So, I think that the fact that the Australian people support it, that it's working and it's got international support, is a pretty good indicator to me that we're on the right track.
Karvelas: Thank you so much for joining us.
Assistant Minister: Thanks, Patricia.