Patricia Karvelas, Host: For a view from the government, I want to bring in the Assistant Foreign Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite. Welcome to the program.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: G'day, Patricia.
Karvelas: Zomi Frankcom's family has just released their statement and the family is calling on your government to seek full disclosure of the evidence underlying Israel's decision. How will you do that?
Assistant Minister: Well, firstly, we share Zomi Frankcom's family's outrage. We're as disappointed as they are by this decision. And it came just after the Foreign Minister with Zomi's family had announced the Zomi Frankcom Humanitarian Award here in Australia. So, completely insensitive and unjustified timing by the Israeli Government. The Foreign Minister called in the Israeli Ambassador today to express our outrage and our disappointment and to express that we continue to expect from the Israeli Defense Force and the Israeli Government further details and further investigation of this shocking incident. We don't believe and we don't think that this is now over. We want a continued investigation into the circumstances of Zomi's death.
Karvelas: And how will you achieve that? Because that's clearly not about to happen. Other than calling for it publicly, what's the mechanism to force their hand? Will you look at sanctions? Will you look at further action to try to force them into this position?
Assistant Minister: Well, we'll do a few things. We'll consult with Zomi's family first and respect their wishes. But we'll also continue the dialogue with the Israeli Government through their Ambassador here. We'll continue to call for the questions that the family want answered to be answered by the Israeli Defense Forces. And we believe that cutting off further investigation is insufficient and it's been done prematurely and it disrespects the life and the wishes of Zomi's family. An Australian, a great Australian who was trying to help people. She was there trying to help people in a very difficult situation and was unfortunately killed in those circumstances. And we believe that there's further questions that need to be answered.
Karvelas: The Frankcom family say this statement just released, they also want the Australian Government, your government, they say they want your government to pursue all available legal avenues for an independent and credible investigation to be conducted. Will you do that?
Assistant Minister: Yes, we will. Obviously, that's why our government appointed the special envoy, Mark Binskin. He's issued a report, he's raised several questions regarding the incident. They're outlined in the statement, why those troops engaged when they were directed not to by their commander. Why that engagement occurred in an area that was designated as a no-fire zone. These are all the questions that the family deserve to get answers for and will continue to press the Israeli Government through the Ambassador for answers to these questions.
Karvelas: But you talk about that, can you commission your own investigation? Is there another process to continue that if they don't listen to you because they've shown no interest?
Assistant Minister: Well, that's why we did ask Mark Binskin to do that report --
Karvelas: But is that now settled? I'm just trying to work out what happens next rather than what's happened already.
Assistant Minister: Well, we're continuing to push the Israeli Government for answers. We're doing everything we possibly can to support Zomi's family and to get answers to the questions that they've raised and that Mark Binskin raised in his report as well.
Karvelas: Does it remain an option that you would consider to expel the Ambassador as a way of getting some action if you fail in your demands? I mean, you're saying you want all of this to happen. It's not happening. What is your actual mechanism for forcing it?
Assistant Minister: Well, the Israeli Ambassador is our government's conduit to the Israeli Government and we want to seek further information from them. We believe that there should be further investigations. So, we think that the best way to get that information is to continue to try and press the Ambassador and the embassy for those answers. So, that's the best approach that we believe the best way to get outcomes for Zomi's family is to continue to engage with the Israeli Government, despite the challenges that we've had and the setback --
Karvelas: Stepping back with respect, people would say this and say, we've watched you engage. You got nothing.
Assistant Minister: Well, we've done as much as we possibly can. Appointing a special envoy to conduct an investigation, continuing to press the government officials. The Prime Minister raised this issue with the Israeli President when he was here earlier in the year. Our Foreign Minister has pressed this issue continuously with the Israeli Foreign Minister and in the wake of yesterday's decision, has asked for a further call and engagement with the Israeli Foreign Minister. And through the meeting that the Foreign Minister had with the Ambassador today, we've asked that Ambassador to convey our extreme disappointment and outrage at this decision so that we can hopefully get the government to have another look at what is an inadequate decision and doesn't do any justice to Zomi Frankcom's life, her legacy, and her family.
Karvelas: You sent the Iranian Ambassador home. So, you do send Ambassadors home. You've done that under your government. Why not here? What's, why is this threshold different?
Assistant Minister: Well, that is different because that was based on intelligence advice that we had received regarding that embassy and their involvement in terrorist activity in Australia, most notably the bombing of the Addis synagogue in Melbourne. So, that's a different situation. But we are doing everything that we possibly can. And we've taken the view that the best way to try and get justice for Zomi and her family is to continue to engage with the Israeli Government through their conduit, being the Ambassador here in Australia. And as well as that, the Australian Ambassador on the ground in Israel is doing the same thing on behalf of the Australian people.
Karvelas: The Ambassador said you should accept the report even if it does not accord with your political views. Is it a political view to question the legitimacy of the report?
Assistant Minister: Well, we think that democracies should be held to high standards. And one of those standards is that when there's allegations of crimes being committed, that they should be fully investigated. And we believe that that hasn't occurred here. And if Israel is going to hold to that high standard of being a democracy, then democracy should fully investigate alleged crimes.
Karvelas: You say if it should hold to that, is it demonstrating that it's not holding to that through this action?
Assistant Minister: Well, we hope that they do hold to that. That's why we're making this point that a democracy should hold the highest standards of investigations into criminal activities. We believe that that has not occurred here. And we believe that alleged crimes should be fully investigated and looked into. And that's the circumstance that we're continuing to press the Israeli Government for.
Karvelas: Do you understand why some Australians are frustrated that the government, your government will use tough words about this, but it doesn't look like there are any ramifications for Israel?
Assistant Minister: Well, I certainly understand that many Australians would be, would be angry. There are many Members in the Parliament that are angry with this decision. But our government has taken the strongest action we possibly can in respect of this case and indeed of other decisions of the Israeli Government where we believe they are in contrast to international law and don't uphold democratic and humanitarian principles. For instance, the sanctions that we put in place against members of the Netanyahu Government and those involved in settler violence. Our work internationally through the United Nations and working with other nations to recognise a Palestinian state. Our motions in that we've supported in the United Nations to ensure the free passage of humanitarian aid, the dollars that Australia has provided to those aid organisations to ensure that food and water and medical supplies get to Gazans. We've taken very, very strong action and we've done everything that we possibly can to ensure that international law is upheld. And most importantly, Patricia, that we try and get to peace, we end this conflict, and that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a state that they can each live in in peace and coexist side by side.
Karvelas: Is this the darkest and lowest day in the history of the Australia-Israel relationship?
Assistant Minister: Well, I can't think of a time when the relationship's been lower. We've had an Australian aid worker who has been killed working, volunteering and working to help others in what is one of the greatest humanitarian crises in the world. She's shown great courage. She's been involved in a noble profession and innocently killed. And that's why we're working as hard as we possibly can to seek answers on behalf of her family.
Karvelas: Your government has expressed outraged that this timing has happened on this Humanitarian Day. Do you really think the timing is deliberate?
Assistant Minister: I can't speak for the Israeli Government regarding their timing, but it's completely insensitive. And on the day when we were, we were launching the Zomi Frankcom Humanitarian Award, the Israeli Government, through their Ambassador, should have at least given the Australian Government notice so, so, that we could have warned Zomi's family. It's completely insensitive, it's disrespectful to her and her family and it just leaves a bit of taste in many Australians in respect of the way that this situation has been handled.
Karvelas: Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.
Assistant Minister: Thank you, Patricia.