Patricia Karvelas, Host: I spoke to the Assistant Minister for Trade, Matt Thistlethwaite, a short time ago. Matt Thistlethwaite, welcome to the programme.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: G'day, Patricia. Thanks for having me on.
Karvelas: The Nationals leader Matt Canavan has said his party will not back the EU Free Trade Agreement. What are you prepared to do to get the deal passed?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've got a deal and we intend to try and get it through the Parliament as quickly as possible. It's going through the treaties committee process at the moment. And this will be the largest free trade agreement that Australia has ever entered into. 27 countries, 450 million consumers in Europe, the largest market that sees greater access for Australian beef and lamb. Basically every vegetable, wheat, barley, viticulture, critical minerals will all be able to be accessed tariff free by Australian exporters. And it's a great shame that. That the Coalition are taking an anti-business stance when it comes to the largest free trade deal that Australia's ever had.
Karvelas: You call it an anti-business stance, but clearly some farmers are concerned. It's not all business that's united. If you can't get the Parliament to ratify the deal, it will be the first time, I think, a trade deal hasn't been ratified. What international signal would that send about Australia?
Assistant Minister: Well, firstly, Patricia, we're still confident that we will be able to get it through the Parliament. We've had some good signals from Liberal MPs, and I think that it's worth pointing out that the Coalition is not united on this. Matt Canavan's expressed a view, but there are plenty of Liberals that are saying to us that they think that the deal should be approved in respect of the farmers. I'd say that you've got the Australian Industry Group, you've got the BCA, you've got the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Seafood Association of Australia, AUSVEG, the, the Minerals Council of Australia and the Group of Eight Universities are all urging the government to approve this deal because they know it will open up access for their members and Australian exporters to the largest market in the world.
Karvelas: OK, you say basically you're going to try and peel off some Liberal MPs. Is that the strategy for trying to get this deal passed through the Parliament.
Assistant Minister: We'll try and work with as many senators as we possibly can. It doesn't matter what political party they're from, we will undertake negotiations to ensure that they understand just how important this free trade agreement will be for Australian producers across the board. So, it doesn't matter which political party people are from, we'll work with them to try and get this through the Senate.
Karvelas: Why aren't the Greens a pathway here?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've had constructive discussions with the Greens. Now they're in the in a transition in terms of who their trade spokesperson will be. But Don Farrell had very constructive discussions with Peter Wilson when he was their spokesperson. They've now moved to Sarah Hanson-Young and we've got a channel of communication. We'll work with them. We think that the commitments that are made under the Free Trade Agreement to action on climate change, particularly the Paris commitments, are very important for Australia and the world to ensure that we're boosting renewable energy and that we meet our abatement commitments.
Karvelas: But just to be clear, you'd prefer it to be the Coalition as your pathway?
Assistant Minister: There's no preference, Patricia. It's about ensuring that the legislation passes so we're not fussed whether it's the Greens or the Coalition members. We want people to see sense on this. We think that the more sensible senators, the ones that understand how pro-business this free trade deal is, how many jobs it will create and importantly the markets that it will open up for Australian producers will say that this is a good deal and that it should be approved by the Parliament.
Karvelas: Look, there's a big international story breaking. Russian President Vladimir Putin has proposed a summit next month with US President Donald Trump and the Chinese leader Xi Jinping to negotiate an end to the four-year Ukraine conflict that looks like it may favour Moscow. That's according to the Wall Street Journal. These stories are breaking. It cites people very familiar with the discussions. Would that be in the best interests of Ukraine?
Assistant Minister: Well, we want to see an end to the conflict like the rest of the world. But the Australian government has determined that we will back Ukraine in its aspiration to maintain its sovereignty and the territorial integrity of its borders. We believe that there's a principle here and it's one that Australia espouses regularly and that is upholding international rules and the order that was put in place post-World War II. One of those principles, Patricia, is that a nation should not be able to invade and take over the sovereign territory of another nation. And that's exactly what Russia has done with Ukraine. So, we're backing Ukraine to ensure that their territorial integrity is maintained.
Karvelas: But does it look like the US is stepping away from those principles, given what's been emerging in the last few days?
Assistant Minister: Well, we're hopeful that negotiations can occur, but that principle must adhere. And that's Australia's position. And we've been unequivocal in that, in any discussions that we've had with the United States or any other international ally or partner, that Ukraine's territorial integrity must be maintained, and we're backing the Ukrainian government on that one.
Karvelas: Okay, so just to confirm, you are concerned about the US moving further away from Ukraine and perhaps closer to Russia?
Assistant Minister: Well, US will make its own foreign policy decisions. We make our foreign policy decisions.
Karvelas: They are our strong partner. And so when, when they take a foreign policy position as significant as this one, do we raise the alarm?
Assistant Minister: Well, we certainly make sure that the United States is aware of what our position on this war is. And that's been made abundantly clear, both in bilateral negotiations, but also publicly. I was at an international forum last week on cybersecurity, where I intervened to raise Australia's concerns with Russia's cyber activities associated with the war in Ukraine. Now, that's something that United States representative did not do, but I did on Australia's behalf, because I think it's important that in international fora, we point out what Russia is doing is illegal and is immoral. And there's a principle at stake here.
Karvelas: I just want to talk about some domestic issues with some implications on obviously very much politics. The Shadow Communications Minister Sarah Henderson has said Pauline Hanson's Please Explain cartoons, which we know have been very controversial, would likely be removed under your proposed digital duty of care laws, she says basically would constitute political censorship. As you know, some people have been upset about the cartoons. Would they be removed?
Assistant Minister: Well, I haven't seen the cartoons. I can't say that I subscribe to any of Pauline Hanson's social media channels. But the important principle is that Australians should be able to have a say in what content they receive through social media and their children as well. So, the right to say that you don't want to be fed the algorithm through your social media feed, we think is an imperative. And that's why we're trying to work to have that enshrined in legislation and understand that the platforms know that in the Australian context, you can't keep feeding people through an algorithm that's designed to make sure that society is divided, that the level of political discourse is heightened in Australia and that we're pitting one Australian against another. That's not the sort of society that we want.
Karvelas: OK, but on the specific question of whether a political cartoon that One Nation, you may not watch them, but people do. Lots of Australians do. Should they be removed?
Assistant Minister: Well, I don't think that political cartoons would be captured by something like this because there's an implied freedom of political expression under the Australian Constitution and it's always generally maintained and upheld by the High Court in any sort of challenge to that. But there are limits, obviously. People need to be tasteful. You shouldn't make personal attacks, in my view. I've only read it. But the attacks on Jacqui Lambie and her health issues, I think are completely unacceptable. And that's not what Australians want to see from a political party attacking another politician regarding their health issues. That's not fair play, in my view.
Karvelas: OK. It's interesting you say that because just this afternoon the One Nation Leader, Pauline Hanson, has told the independent Senator Jacqui Lambie. Exactly in relation to what you referred to. Get over it. Should she just get over it?
Assistant Minister: No, I think that that's unacceptable. People's health issues and their personal lives should not be the subject of political attack in Australia. If we start to do that, we're going down a very, very slippery path where you end up with a completely divided country and nothing is off limits. And I don't think that that's the type of society that Australians want to see in our political discourse. We should make the debates on social media and in the public about who's got the better policy options, not their personal characteristics.
Karvelas: Yeah, I mean, lots of people are offended by it and it's pretty obvious why. But she says it's just about, you know, that Jacqui Lambie should just have a laugh about it.
Assistant Minister: Well, I think that Pauline Hanson's approach is inappropriate and that attacking Jacqui Lambie for health-related issues should not occur.
Karvelas: Thank you so much for joining us.
Assistant Minister: Thanks, Patricia.