Peter Stefanovic, Host: Joining us now is the Assistant Foreign Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite, and Liberal Senator Maria Kovacic. Good to see you both. And Maria, welcome to the panel. The first on a Monday morning. So, thanks for joining us.
Maria Kovacic, Liberal Senator for NSW: Thank you.
Stefanovic: Let's start there. So, as Tony Burke said, the blame is on the courts. The threshold is too high. What are your thoughts on this concession?
Kovacic: Look, I think what the Prime Minister and his Minister need to acknowledge is that they have failed on this from the outset. This was before the courts in late 2023. The decision came down in late November 2023, and the government was caught flat-footed. They were not ready. It was the responsibility of this government to be ready for any decision of the High Court and to be able to proceed, whether it was a favourable one or not a favourable one. They did not do that. And now, some 18 months later, Australians are still faced with the reality of having dangerous criminals on our streets. And let's be clear, there were some, you know, 12 murderers or attempted murderers in this cohort, some 66 sex offenders, and 28 of those individuals have since committed federal crimes. That is an abomination.
Stefanovic: Matt, I remember at the time, and let's put your former assistant hat on here, remember at the time you just lurched and the government, I should say, lurched from one problem to the other. Nothing was sticking. Are you out of options now?
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: No, not at all. Welcome, Maria. I think the important thing to remind people of, Pete, is that we acted and acted very quickly to keep Australians safe. And the laws that we brought in were actually based on laws that were instituted by the previous Liberal Government around terrorism suspects. And they were actually supported by the Liberal Party. So, they were laws, strong laws. They were supported by the Liberal Party, and they have been working because they provide other methods to monitor people, including ankle bracelets and curfews. And even in the wake of that high threshold not being met, we instituted new laws based on removing people to third countries. So, where there's any risk now, we've strengthened those laws. So, you'd actually look to remove people who are a risk to a third country. So, we've gone further than what the Liberal Party did when they were in government.
Stefanovic: But are you looking to change anything now moving forward, or are you just going to keep the status quo?
Assistant Minister: I think it's worth reminding people, Pete, that a lot of these cases involve people who've been convicted of crimes under state laws. They served their sentences, they're then released. They're then detained because their visas are cancelled. And once their visas are cancelled, many of them will then appeal to the courts, and the courts will say that the cancellation of the visa was unlawful and reinstate their visa. There's then an opportunity for that case to come back to a Minister and for the Minister to cancel their visa once again. And I've got to say, in the majority of those cases, after that occurs, the person will then leave the country. The problem is for people who are stateless and for whom we have non-refoulement obligations; they're the challenge. And that's why we brought in those new laws around monitoring and removal to third countries. So, we have acted, and we've got a set of conditions in place for people in that situation.
Stefanovic: Well, what's your response to that, Maria, and if there's anything else you'd like to see the government do?
Kovacic: Well, I think the important thing here is that the government hasn't acted adequately, to say that they have acted. We are some 18 months later, and we have the Minister coming out and saying, well, you know, this hasn't worked. We need to ensure that whatever mechanisms are in place, they are effective and that they work and that they do protect Australians and Australians are not at risk. You know, people going to and from work and our children going to and from school are not at risk from dangerous individuals on our streets.
Stefanovic: Ok, elsewhere this morning, Matt, your boss, the Foreign Minister, she's off to Washington this week. But in the AFR today, an interesting piece, two influential congressmen, that's Joe Courtney and Michael McCaul. They've said the Prime Minister should be going to secure our AUKUS arrangement. Is that another pointer for how much the programme could be in strife?
Assistant Minister: Well, AUKUS is very strong, and I think it's worth reminding people, Pete, that we've actually lifted our defence expenditure by a record amount on the back of the Defence Strategic Review. And a lot of that includes AUKUS. And we've also bolstered the support that we're giving to the United States military and their operations in Australia. So, for instance, we've now got the submarine rotational force, the marine rotational force on an annual basis. The numbers grow every year. Talisman Sabre is on soon, and the numbers of US troops that'll be here for that have grown --
Stefanovic: [interjecting] Sure. But I guess the point is about the Prime Minister going and, you know, pressing flesh in person.
Assistant Minister: Well, the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister had an engagement, obviously, President Trump had to go and deal with the situation in Iran, and we respect that --
Stefanovic: [interjecting] But are there attempts underway to get that back on track now to get another one going?
Assistant Minister: Obviously, the Prime Minister has said that we will attempt to re-engage with the United States President at an appropriate time. And that will be announced in the normal course. But in the meantime, there are continual bipartisan - I'm sorry, bilateral meetings occurring between Australia and the United States. The trade representatives met last week. Penny Wong will be there for a Quad meeting this week. In terms of foreign affairs and defence, there's continual relations going on between Australia and the United States.
Stefanovic: Well, let's, got a minute left. But, Maria, have you got a point to make on that?
Kovacic: Look, I do. I think, you know, there's obviously a problem with the Prime Minister and the President of the United States in terms of getting that face-to-face meeting, and that needs to be a priority. We want the Prime Minister to do well in that regard. There are three things that Penny Wong needs to do. Number one is to secure AUKUS. Number one, to ensure that we are protected from the tariffs in the same way that the UK has been able to do and hopefully get an invitation for the Prime Minister to meet the President face-to-face.
Stefanovic: Okay. I mean, in the last 30 seconds, Matt, realistically, what can Penny Wong extract this week?
Assistant Minister: Well, she'll strengthen the relationship and focus on --
Stefanovic: [interjecting] But what does that mean?
Assistant Minister: Well, it's a Quad meeting, so it's about securing the Indo-Pacific for our region. And it will be based on strengthening the relations between the four nations involved in that.
Stefanovic: All right, Maria and Matt, appreciate it. Thank you so much.