Tom Connell, Host: The Prime Minister is confident he'll get face time with Donald Trump during summit season this year. Joining me in the studio, Assistant Foreign Affairs and Trade Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite. Thanks for your time. Fair to say it wasn't the plan, was it. So, what are we, nearly September? No meeting, would have been good to have an earlier one.
Matt Thistlewaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: Well, we've had a request in for a meeting for some time. There was one planned. I think people are forgetting that now. There was one planned. But then, of course, the situation with Iran escalated and the President had to leave the meeting. So, we're still hopeful of a meeting. We stand ready to meet with the President whenever he wishes to.
Connell: The other interesting one was Richard Marles. I'm not really interested in this sort of, was it a meeting or not? But the next crucial one is AUSMIN, so Defence Ministers, Foreign Affairs Ministers meeting together. It's scheduled to be in Australia and soon. Is that going to go ahead?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, it's going ahead.
Connell: It is.
Assistant Minister: It's going ahead and it happens every year --
Connell: And it's in Australia?
Assistant Minister: We do it one year in the US and the next year here, and it's scheduled to be here this year, so it's going ahead. I can't give you the exact date, but it is going ahead.
Connell: Ok, but full confidence? There's no sign from the US they've confirmed they're coming out?
Assistant Minister: No sign that it's not going ahead.
Connell: By the end of that, will we have some more certainty over AUKUS?
Assistant Minister: Well, they're undertaking a review and that's not unusual. Australia undertook a review with the Defence Strategic Review that confirmed that AUKUS was the right way to go. The UK has undertaken one, now the US is doing one. I was at the leadership dialogue with Congress men and women a couple of weeks ago from both the Republican Party and the Democrats, including Joe Courtney, and they're all confident that AUKUS would continue and the work's being done, the work over at Stirling to ready for the Virginia-class submarines. There are Australians that are over in the U.S. training in readiness for that. So, the work's continuing. We're pretty confident it will continue.
Connell: The biggest clear issue, actual policy issue the US has with Australia is on defence spending, just about every security expert believes that with the current times we're in, combined with the spend on AUKUS subs, 2% or just over it, which is set at, is not enough.
Assistant Minister: Well, we are increasing defence spending. It's increasing by $50 billion over the course of the next --
Connell: But this is per cent of GDP. The things Defence spends money on increase. So, dollar terms isn't really the best measurement.
Assistant Minister: I think we've got to start to try and get away from this percentage of GDP as a measure of the defence readiness of Australia and our defence force. I think what's important is what's required to defend Australia. And the Defence Strategic Review outlined what was required to defend Australia. So, for instance, they said that we needed additional frigates and we're making those investments. We announced the new frigate that we'll purchase from Japan in the coming years and that will be delivered very, very quickly. Again, they said that we need to develop a missile capacity, a manufacturing missile capacity in Australia. We're allocating those funds and we're delivering that. They said we needed to upgrade the bases we're delivering --
Connell: Plenty of experts would agree it's not just about putting a per cent on it, but with the current amount that is budgeted on defence and the inevitable blowout on AUKUS subs, it won't be enough. Will the government ratchet it up as and when it needs to for that capability?
Assistant Minister: We believe that the money that's allocated in the Budget is adequate both to deliver AUKUS the capability that Australia needs and that's what's important. It's about delivering the capability that Australia needs and look into the future and making those investments. We're seeing from Ukraine the importance of the use of drones. Now Australia's making huge investments with Ghost Bat and other technology where we're leading the world and the US is actually looking to purchase that material off us. So, we're doing what we need to make sure we've got the capacity.
Connell: I spoke to the Deputy Foreign Minister of Taiwan this week. Taiwan really wants to be part of the major Asian trade pacts and we're heading up one of them this year. Why is Australia not pushing for Taiwan, a trade partner and one that obeys the rules of trade, to be part of that?
Assistant Minister: The CPTPP is what you're referring to. There are rules around the ascension of countries to that. They're called the Auckland Principles and they include that the country has to abide by international trade norms, have a good record, but importantly, there needs to be agreement of all the other partners --
Connell: But Australia can still push the case, and it's not.
Assistant Minister: Well at the moment because Costa Rica is being considered. So, the Costa Rica application is being considered and then there's seven other nations that want to ascend to the CPTPP as well. So, the way the rules operate is that we work --
Connell: It's a pretty important country, when you think of the semiconductors and chips, though, shouldn't, the reason feels as though it's obvious we're scared of China's reaction if we push for Taiwan to be included?
Assistant Minister: Well, we're operating in accordance with the principles that have been established by the partners, and that is that there needs to be agreement of all of the partners --
Connell: But we can still put Taiwan's case forward, but we're not.
Assistant Minister: Well, we need to have the agreement of the other partners to do that and we're working on an orderly process and --
Connell: So, are we working behind closed scenes to say Taiwan should be included?
Assistant Minister: No, we're not at the moment. The partners have determined with Australia that the Costa Rica application will be looked at first and that's the one --
Connell: Will Australia support the Taiwan application when it comes up?
Assistant Minister: Well, we'll make sure that we make decisions based on the principles, the Auckland Principles --
Connell: Is there any principle that Taiwan is not adhering to?
Assistant Minister: Well, we'd have to have a look at that. And it's a matter of those parties making an application --
Connell: And that application has been assessed from the Australian Government?
Assistant Minister: Well, no, it hasn't been assessed because as I said, the parties make those decisions.
Connell: So, as long as it doesn't fall foul of any of those principles, Australia would support Taiwan joining the Ukraine?
Assistant Minister: No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is --
Connell: What other reason would we have for not supporting it?
Assistant Minister: Well, because the principles that we've agreed to are that there needs to be unanimous agreement of --
Connell: Yes, but for unanimous agreement, each party has to agree. So, would Australia say yes when they're all deciding whether or not to agree, as long as Taiwan's not falling foul?
Assistant Minister: We haven't made a decision on that yet --
Connell: But I'm saying if they don't fall foul of principles, would we be a yes?
Assistant Minister: Well, I'm not committing to that. We're making sure that we assess it within the principles that have been established by the parties.
Connell: But I'm saying if the principles are a yes, should we be a yes?
Assistant Minister: At the moment, we haven't made a decision.
Connell: Matt Thistlethwaite, appreciate your time.
Assistant Minister: Thanks Tom.