Tom Connell, Host: Well, the latest edition of the climate wars has been fought and won, this time within the Liberal Party. It does mean the party has scrapped net zero. We'll see exactly what their policy is once they have a meeting with the Nationals. But it does also sharpen the debate, the difference, if you like, between the two major parties. Joining me now is Assistant Foreign Affairs Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite. Thank you for your time. Labor, from conversations, private ones, at least a few chuckling at what's happened here, but is it something to be wary of, considering net zero? And approval for it has been dwindling in the polls, is it fair to say voters didn't think their power bills would be as high as they are right now?
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: Well, certainly, Tom, I appreciate that people are paying a lot for their electricity bills and that's why our government put in place measures to assist households with that, with the energy rebates. But at the same time, we're making massive investments, particularly in renewable energy, to bring on additional supply. And that is beginning to work. We're seeing that household, sorry, wholesale electricity prices are starting to come down. Now, I appreciate they haven't flowed through to retail prices yet, but they're heading in the right direction and we're getting additional supply into the system and most of that is renewable, so we're certainly heading in the right direction.
Connell: Right. But would you agree that the polling and the softening of support for it, is it around power prices? Is that what you think is happening? What are people telling you that are not too happy right now?
Assistant Minister: Well, I don't agree that there is a softening of support. There was the poll that was published earlier in the week that said a third of voters don't support net zero, but that means two thirds do. So, that's the overwhelming majority of Australians. And I can tell you --
Connell: Well, there was an unsure element as well, so, it's not, it's not quite two thirds. It's a bit lower than that.
Assistant Minister: Well, it's a hell of a lot more than don't. And I can assure you, Tom, that the overwhelming majority of young Australians, which are starting to make up most of the Australian population, they do support net zero. They see it as emblematic of what a country needs to do as a minimum, really, to make sure that we're taking climate change seriously, that we're making that transition, but most importantly, that we're looking to the future and we're leaving them a better future, really, net zero is about our kids generation and their generation. It's about making sure that we're putting in place the policies to make that steady transition away from fossil fuels to more renewable energy. So, we're reducing emissions, but at the same time we're bringing on more renewable energy supply, and that's what we're doing.
Connell: I guess the analogy is this, though, there's a problem that needs to be fixed and there's some tough medicine to come. If you go to the doctor and you're told this will happen, we'll fix you, it's going to hurt a bit, you're going to understand it. If you're told it won't hurt and it does, you're not too happy. Is that the aspect some voters are unhappy about? And there has been a sliding in support for net zero and a softening of it. Was it about that 2022 pledge on power prices that didn't come true?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think it's been a number of things. There's been international factors that the Ukraine war has no doubt had an effect on international energy prices and that's flowed through to Australians, and that's why we put in place those measures to provide that temporary relief and assistance to get people through this difficult period. But if you look at the record investments that households are making in solar panels and batteries as well, assisted by our rebate, I think it means that they understand that renewable energy is cheaper in the long run and that if you can make the investment now, you're going to be better off. At the same time, we're reducing our emissions and we all know that we need to do that. We need to, as a nation, join with the international community and be part of this international effort to reduce carbon emissions. Otherwise there are catastrophic climate consequences for the planet.
Connell: I want to talk to a part of your sort of portfolio within the foreign affairs realm, this, I guess I'm calling it a security agreement with Indonesia. There's the sharing of intelligence. How ironclad is this? Is this that if there's something that we need to know and Indonesia comes across, they will tell us to do with our security and intelligence? Or is it not quite that concrete?
Assistant Minister: Well, it's about sharing information and consulting each other. And it builds on what's been now four decades, really, of cooperation around defence and security. The Keating government signed the initial security agreement with Indonesia. The Howard government built on that, and then we signed a defence cooperation treaty with Indonesia last year. So, it builds on that and it's all about ensuring that we're working as closely as we possibly can with our neighbours, Tom, to ensure peace and stability going forward. And that involves a duty of each of us to consult each other about our security decisions. And the more cooperation and the more consultation you have, I think that the better outcomes you're going to get for that security arrangement moving forward.
Connell: The level of this deal, though, and I guess it goes to trust as well, the analysis on Indonesia and their approach on the world stage, I mean, not so long ago, the President was alongside China, Russia and North Korea leaders as well. Is it fair to say this is, you know, not at the highest levels of trust and exchange?
Assistant Minister: Well, each nation will still maintain their sovereignty around their own economic and defence decisions, but there's an obligation there for us to work cooperatively by consulting each other. And that makes sense when you think about the fact that we all live in this region, we're very close to each other. There's a lot of challenges that the region is facing, not only around security and defence, but climate change is one of those classic examples that we're all trying to deal with together. So, this duty to cooperate and to work together ensures that the risk of making mistakes, the risk of miscalculation is reduced and that we have peace and stability moving forward.
Connell: And they've got matching hats, of course, as well. Matt Thistlethwaite, thank you.
Assistant Minister: Thanks Tom.