Sally Sara, host: Matt Thistlethwaite is the Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Assistant Minister for Immigration and joins me in our Parliament House studio this morning in Canberra. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs: Good morning, Sally. Thanks for having me on.
Sara: The Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong said the government wants to see if commercial flights recommence in the region, what would be the fastest way to get Australians home, those who want to return?
Assistant Minister: We know that there's about 115,000 Australians that are either working or living within the region. We're encouraging them at the moment to register with Smartraveller. When they register, they get 24-hour updates on what's going on, the situation and the best advice from the government. Obviously, with the airspace closed at the moment, there are very limited options. Hopefully that airspace will start to open. We've been informed that there are limited inbound flights now to Abu Dhabi and Dubai. So, hopefully the airspace will progressively begin to open over the coming weeks and then we'll have options to get Australians out. But the reality is the best option will be commercial flights.
Sara: So, I was going to ask that. The thinking that's guiding the government at the moment is that commercial flights would be the best way rather than military deployment?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, given that there's so many Australians there, the best option is likely commercial flights. Obviously, the Australian Government will explore all options, but the best advice at the moment is to register through Smartraveller. That way we get your email address and your contact details, and we'll provide the most up to date information from the Australian Government about how to keep people safe and get them out of the region as quickly as possible.
Sara: Is the government considering deploying any military assets to help evacuate Australians?
Assistant Minister: Look at the moment, we're looking at that, but the reality is that commercial means will be the best option, just because there are so many Australians within the region, it wouldn't be practical to try and fly a hundred-odd thousand Australians out on military aircraft. So, the best option will be commercial flights. Once the airspace begins to open, we'll begin advising Australians in the different parts of the region, the best place to go to get those commercial flights. But the best advice at the moment as well, Sally, is don't cancel your flight. Make sure that you maintain your flight and that and you're in regular contact with your travel agent and your airline about updates.
Sara: The Shadow Defence Minister, James Patterson questioned yesterday whether there were, quote, sufficient warnings for Australians in the region before the outbreak of hostilities. Is that fair?
Assistant Minister: Well, since the beginning of this year, there have been 41 travel advice updates that the Australian Government has issued for the region and 26 social media posts. On January 15, the Foreign Minister gave a media conference where she warned that the airspace could close in the coming weeks in the region. And on the 19th of February, we updated the travel warnings once again, telling people to issue a very high degree of caution if you're looking to go to the area. So, we've been constantly working on the best available intelligence and advice and updating Australians as we got that information.
Sara: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast. My guest is the Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Matt Thistlethwaite. Earlier this morning, Minister, we spoke to Oona Hathaway, who is professor of International at Yale Law School and also President-elect of the American International Law Society. We asked her if the US and Israeli military strikes on Iran were legal. This is what she had to say.
Oona Hathaway: No, they are not. Unfortunately, they are, as best we can tell, and based on what we've been told by the President, not in response to any imminent threat that required a response, and therefore they violate the United Nations Charter, which prohibits its use as a force unless taken in self defence or authorised by the UN Security Council, which has not been true here.
Sara: What's the Australian Government's position on the legality of these strikes?
Assistant Minister: Well, Australia is not involved in this conflict, but we have, through the Prime Minister, issued a statement of support for the actions by the United States and Israel that relate to the actions that were taken by those militaries to neuter the Iranian military program, particularly any proposed nuclear program. Iran had sanctions, they had conditions on their nuclear program which they had continually breached, and there are reports from the International Atomic Energy Agency of inspections last year around breaches of those conditions. So, our support was premised on that, and it's up to the United States to justify that in accordance with international law.
Sara: Are we willing to support strikes that are illegal under international law?
Assistant Minister: Well, again, Australia's not involved in this --
Sara: But we have views on conflicts and events in which we are not directly involved.
Assistant Minister: Yeah, and the Prime Minister has issued a statement which points out that this regime has not only terrorised and murdered its own citizens, but it has also been involved, through proxies like Hamas, like Hezbollah, in reporting destruction and suffering throughout the region. And we only need look at the fact that Hamas on October 7th invaded Israel and started this widespread conflict that led to the destruction in Gaza and the death of tens of thousands of people, including young children. So, our statement of support is based on ensuring that that destruction does not continue within that region.
Sara: Has the government sought advice on the legality of these strikes against Iran?
Assistant Minister: I'm not aware of any seeking of advice --
Sara: Why wouldn't the government seek advice?
Assistant Minister: Well, look, you know, we make our decisions based on what we believe is, we've always said that we uphold international law, but we make our decisions based on what we believe is in the best interests of Australia and the international community. And I think that --
Sara: So, sometimes we will support illegal action if it's in our best interests?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think that the response of Iranian Australians is a pretty good indicator of the government's position on this, in that you've had Iranians who still have family and friends within the region who have been out obviously celebrating these actions because they know what a destructive regime this has been and the suffering that they've had to go through. And I've personally met with a number of people who've migrated to Australia, who've been given protection visas, who have escaped that regime. And the destruction, the targeting, the breaches of human rights have gone on for too long.
Sara: On the international stage, how does Australia put itself forward as a middle power that is promoting the global order when we may be supporting illegal strikes?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think that we work with other middle power nations to ensure that we have consistent positions. And when you look at the approach that Canada and the United Kingdom, countries that we've worked closely with on the conflict in this region, they have a similar position to Australia. Australia is not an outlier in this in the approach that we have taken, we're very much consistent with those other middle power nations that we see as allies and supports.
Sara: Matt Thistlethwaite, thank you very much for joining me this morning.
Assistant Minister: Thanks, Sally.