Melissa Clarke, Host: For more on the relationship with the US, I was joined earlier by the Assistant Foreign Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite. Matt Thistlethwaite, thanks very much for joining me.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs Aad Trade: G’day, Mel. Thanks for having me on.
Clarke: So, what difference do you think Australia's recognition of a Palestinian state will make to the war in Gaza?
Assistant Minister: Well, on its own, we've always said that Australia can make little difference. But as a coalition of nations, Australia can have a big impact. And that's what the two state solution conference at the United Nations in New York is all about. And Australia is joining 150 other nations to say that enough is enough. There is a humanitarian catastrophe happening in Gaza. People are being denied food and water and medical supplies. Aid workers have been killed and the hostages nearly two years on have not been released. And the world has come together at this conference to say enough is enough. The best way to get a lasting peace and try and find a ceasefire to this is to have two states internationally recognised behind secure borders as a means to a lasting peace.
Clarke: There's been a lot of discussion about this move given it’s a significant change to Australia's foreign policy. So, I just want to put to you some of the positions that we hear in response to this change. And for many Australian supporters of Palestine, they see recognition as something that's overdue and they really want something that's more practical. They want to see things like sanctions. How do you respond to their criticism that symbolism isn't really what's needed at this point in time?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've coupled it with sanctions. We've placed sanctions on two Israeli Ministers that were involved in settler activities --
Clarke: In the West Bank, though that didn't have anything to do with the actions the Israeli government's taking in Gaza.
Assistant Minister: And we've been one of the largest generous aid contributors to the efforts to ensure that people are fed and that they get access to food and medical supplies as quickly as possible. And we're also joining as part of this international coalition around recognition. Our government has gone further than any other Australian government has ever gone on recognition of Palestine and rights for Palestinian people. And we're using this as a means to try and bring this conflict to an end. And not only do that get a lasting peace that will ensure that the people of Palestine have a country that they can feel safe in.
Clarke: There's been criticism at the other end of the scale as well, those who say this is rewarding Hamas. What's your response to that?
Assistant Minister: Well, Hamas don't want this. Hamas have always said that they don't want two states, so we're going directly against what they want. And the second point is that we've always said, and we've made it explicit, that Hamas cannot be involved in the administration of the Palestinian state. And it's pleasing to see the Arab League come out and say that Hamas must now demilitarise and get out of Gaza. We've got assurances from the Palestinian Authority about reforming their processes, about holding democratic elections, reforming their education system, demilitarising and ensuring that we can get to a situation where hopefully in a few years’ time, we have a democratic state that has elections behind internationally recognised borders.
Clarke: In his speech to this UN summit, Anthony Albanese said that recognition means real hope for a place that Palestinians can call home. And it's the same hope that sustained generations of Jewish people. Now, Michaelia Cash, as the foreign affairs spokesperson for the opposition, says that diminishes the unique plight that the Jewish people have faced through history. Does the government see the Jewish and Palestinian desires for a homeland being equivalent?
Assistant Minister: The Prime Minister made an excellent speech and he pointed out that Australia in 1947 was the first nation to vote for the establishment of the State of Israel. But in that resolution, it was explicitly pointed out that there needs to be two states, the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. And that's a position that successive Australian governments have held since that time. And it's always been bipartisan. And now I think that the world has come together, Mel, to say that the humanitarian catastrophe that's occurring has to stop. There's been so many attempts at trying to deliver the outcome that was envisaged in that first resolution in 1947 of two states. And they've all failed. Well, the world has said enough is enough. We've got this unique opportunity to now come together as an international coalition with 150 nations saying that there needs to be two states behind internationally recognised borders.
Clarke: We've had some Congressional Republicans write to the Federal Government ahead of the recognition, warning against doing that. Has the Australian Government or the Prime Minister written back directly to those Republicans?
Assistant Minister: I don't believe that we have. And I again reiterate the point that Australia makes our foreign policy decisions based on what we believe is in the best interests of our nation and the Australian people. We've got a very multicultural society and we believe that the best way to ensure a lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to this conflict is to ensure that we have two states. That's the outcome that the world wants to see as a means to bringing this conflict to an end.
Clarke: Nonetheless, this is a letter from, you know, members of Congress of a close ally of ours. Why wouldn't we have written back to at least outline our position? I mean, we've seen Sussan Ley, the Opposition Leader, already write back. Why wouldn't the government do that?
Assistant Minister: Well, Sussan Ley's letter to the Republicans is more about her warding off the challenge that's coming to her from the right wing hawks in her party. It's got more to do with her position as leader of the Liberal Party rather than what is good Australian foreign policy. And for them to try and undermine the position of the Prime Minister and the nation of Australia at an international forum like the United Nations is a disgrace. And I think it says everything about the quality of her leadership that she'd seek to play politics with an issue important like this at an international forum when the Prime Minister is delivering the position of the Australian Government and the Australian people.
Clarke: Now, can I just move to another related matter and that's the Prime Minister's itinerary. There were certainly hopes before he left Australia that he'd be having a meeting with Donald Trump. It looks like that's not going to happen, is that right?
Assistant Minister: As far as we're aware, there will be. The Prime Minister will meet Donald Trump at a function. Whether or not there'll be a formal meeting, we're still waiting on that. But I would point out that the Prime Minister had a phone call meeting with the President a couple of weeks ago where they discussed issues such as the Middle East and security arrangements and AUKUS and the like. There's been a further phone meeting in the last year or so.
Clarke: It's not quite the same over the phone though, is it? Like, is it disappointing that Australia hasn't been able to get a face to face leader with our closest ally?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think you have to see it in the light of that. The United States sees Australia as a trusted partner. They see us as a reliable partner and a long term ally. We've managed to negotiate an arrangement in terms of trade issues that's one of the best in the world. Obviously, we've expressed our opposition to the Trump administration's policies around tariffs, but no nation has fared better than Australia --
Clarke: What's the benefit of Australia being a close and reliable ally if we just then get ignored and can't make cases like the one that you want to make about having lower tariffs? If, what's the point in that relationship if it means we don't, we don't actually get to know, make the case we want to make?
Assistant Minister: Well, the benefit, Mel, is that we get the best outcome of any nation in the world in terms of the Trump administration's approach to trade policy. That's the benefit. Australia's fared better than any other nation and that's meant that access for Australian exporters into the United States market and other markets has actually increased, and that's been a good thing for Australian exporters. It also means that we have this important relationship with our defence forces that's reinforced by AUKUS, by the Marine Rotational Force that's currently in Australia at the moment, by Talisman Sabre exercises where we saw the largest ever US contingent participating in that. The relationship between Australia and the United States is quite strong.
Clarke: So, should Australian steel and aluminium producers, who still got a 50% tariff on their goods, should they just accept that that's the state of play, if you think that's a good outcome?
Assistant Minister: We've always said that we believe that those tariffs are unjustified and that we'd like to see them removed. And that position has not changed. And we'll continue to advocate for Australian steel and aluminium exporters. We believe that those tariffs are unjustified and unfair. But you have to look at it relatively, I think, and when it comes to the overall picture, Australia has fared better than any other nation in the world.
Clarke: Alright, Matt Thistlethwaite, we'll have to leave it there, but thanks very much for joining us.
Assistant Minister: Thanks, Mel.