Patricia Karvelas, host: Now, I spoke to the Assistant Foreign and Immigration Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite, a short time ago. I spoke to him and that was a false start on that tape. We'll get that to you in a moment. I spoke to him about what happened in Israel and what the Australian Government wants in our dealings with the ambassador and the Israeli Government, here's Matt Thistlethwaite. Matt Thistlethwaite, welcome to the program.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: G'day, Patricia.
Karvelas: The government's hauled the Israeli ambassador in. Why?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've seen the actions of an Israeli minister in mocking and belittling detainees in Israel. We believe that that's completely unacceptable. It was a shocking bit of footage that I saw today and we've expressed our concern to the government of Israel, both through our ambassador based in Israel, and as you mentioned, we've hauled the Israeli ambassador in to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade this afternoon to express our government's concern and indeed our view that all people, including the Australians that are detained, need to be treated humanely and in accordance with international norms.
Karvelas: Ok, so that request has been made of the ambassador. What do you expect the ambassador to do? Is it largely a request around our citizens?
Assistant Minister: Well, we want everyone to be treated humanely and in accordance with international processes. But ideally, we'd like to see the Australian detainees released and returned to Australia. We want them to be treated in accordance with those principles. We want them to gain access to Australian consular officials and we've relayed that to the Israeli Government.
Karvelas: The flotilla crews have said Israel's enforcement of the policy intercepting ships in international waters is akin to piracy. Is it piracy?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've always said that the law of the sea needs to be upheld and there's clear rules under the UNCLOS convention that Australia is signatory to that, uphold those, those rules. We have warned Australians not to go to that region because of the dangers associated with travelling there. It is a war zone. There's a do not travel warning through Smartraveller to the region and we've issued warnings to people because you can end up in scenarios such as this where you are detained. But we want the law to be upheld, international law, at all times.
Karvelas: Do you think Israel's actions more broadly, through all of these flotilla interceptions, have been appropriate?
Assistant Minister: Well, as I said, we want to make sure that international law is upheld and countries need to make sure that they abide by their international obligations regarding the law of the sea. Australia does that. We're an island nation that relies on freedom of shipping and navigation, and we always make the case wherever it is, throughout the world. You've seen us say things in that regard in the South China Sea. We make the same point regarding the ocean around the Middle East and the Mediterranean, that the law of the sea needs to be upheld.
Karvelas: The Australian flotilla spokesperson has pushed back on Israel's claim that the flotilla was not intending to deliver aid to Gaza. They say they've got evidence that that's in fact, exactly what they were trying to do. Do you believe the Australians who say this is about aid?
Assistant Minister: Well, that will be up to those individuals to explain what they were doing there. We've warned people not to go to the region because it is a conflict zone, there is danger. It can affect your travel insurance, it can certainly affect your safety, and we've seen that with people being detained, and we want to make sure that Australians are as safe as possible. So, that's why we've issued those warnings. And we'll try and do all we can to ensure that those Australians are returned home as safely as possible. If people want to support the humanitarian aid effort in Gaza and the Middle East more broadly, and I completely understand that people are concerned by the humanitarian situation and want to help, the best way to do that is to work through the established aid agencies like Red Cross and others that are working in the region to provide that aid. So, perhaps look to donate to those organisations or volunteer to assist them.
Karvelas: So, if, if you're condemning it the way you are, what other actions do you, have you asked for? Do you think that Ben-Gvir should be sacked?
Assistant Minister: Well, there's a reason why we've sanctioned Ben-Gvir, and I think we've all seen that in that footage. He's one of a number of members of the Israeli cabinet and government that have been sanctioned by the Australian Government for inappropriate conduct and comments. And this comes on the top of his comments regarding what we see as illegal settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territories. That's why this individual has been sanctioned by the Australian Government. We'll reiterate that with Israeli Government officials whenever we speak to them. We've certainly relayed that to the ambassador and we expect that people should treat others with dignity and respect and uphold international law.
Karvelas: Just in terms of this hauling in of the ambassador, who was involved in that meeting?
Assistant Minister: Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials who work in the Middle East and are representing the Australian Government, they met with the Israeli ambassador. They convey, on behalf of the Australian Government and indeed the Australian people, our displeasure at the treatment of the detainees and our request that they be released and returned to Australia and treated humanely in the process.
Karvelas: And if they're not in a timely way, what are the consequences? What is Australia prepared to do to escalate this and get a result?
Assistant Minister: Our consular officials work on the ground to provide them with as much assistance as possible. And we'd expect the Israeli Government to provide access to our citizens in situations such as this. We'll provide them with all the support necessary and we'll keep reiterating that message that we expect them to be released and returned to Australia.
Karvelas: Ok, would you describe the Australia Israel relationship at an all time low?
Assistant Minister: Well, Australia and Israel have been nations that have had a cooperative relationship going back to the formation of the nation of Israel. Australia was the first nation that voted in the United Nations for the establishment of the State of Israel. But at that time we also made it clear that our support was premised on two states, two viable states, an Arab state and a state for the people of Jewish background in Israel. And we've never wavered from that. That's been bipartisan, that approach for many, many decades. And Australia has solidified that in our approach by recognising a Palestinian state and by working cooperative with other nations in the United Nations and other forums to reiterate that point.
Karvelas: Okay, so you talk about the history, but now is the relationship at an all time low? I mean, given that the aspect Israeli state hasn't supported a second state?
Assistant Minister: Well, the relationship remains stable and we have differences with the government of Israel and when we have those differences, we express those differences --
Karvelas: Is it stable if we're hauling in an ambassador? I mean that sounds like an escalation to anyone watching.
Assistant Minister: We have a, we have a stable relationship with the government of Israel and the State of Israel. But where there are issues, issues that are of concern, then obviously we will reiterate our view that those actions are unacceptable. And we've done that on several occasions regarding settlement activity of this government in Israel regarding their approach to the detaining of Australians and our expectation that they uphold international law. We will always stand up for the rights of Australians and the rights of international law.
Karvelas: Is Israel's blockade of Gaza appropriate during an apparent ceasefire?
Assistant Minister: We want to see the ceasefire become permanent and that's why we're calling for a de-escalation. So, we want all the parties to try and get around the negotiating table and nut out a lasting compromise that sees a return to peace, a lasting ceasefire, the humanitarian aid get through where is necessary and ultimately the rebuilding of Gaza and Palestine and the establishment of a second state. That's the only way you're going to get peace to last in this region. This has been a conflict that's been going on for hundreds of years and the only way you're going to get peace is if we have two states living side by side under international law, both recognising one another and acting in peace. And that's what we've been advocating through this whole conflict.
Karvelas: Many thanks for your time.
Assistant Minister: Thanks Patricia.