Patricia Karvelas, Host: I want to bring in the Assistant Foreign Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite now. Welcome to the programme.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: G’day Patricia.
Karvelas: Is what Israel is embarking on in Gaza, the forced displacement of Palestinians?
Assistant Minister: Well, we're strongly opposed to this decision by the Netanyahu government regarding Gaza City. We think it's a bad decision. It's a setback for the release of Israeli hostages. It's a setback for a permanent ceasefire and a lasting peace. And it's a setback for the notion of eventually two states behind secure borders. That's why we're strongly opposed to this decision and we believe that the Netanyahu Government should reconsider it.
Karvelas: How are you expressing that dissatisfaction? And are you, is there, has there been contact yet between the Prime Minister and the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu?
Assistant Minister: As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been contact. It's public that the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has sought to contact Benjamin Netanyahu to discuss these issues. The Foreign Minister met with the Israeli ambassador last week to express our government's concern and opposition to the process that had been undertaken by the Israeli Government regarding food distribution that's resulted in the images, shocking images that we've been seeing on television of people being killed trying to access aid and food and the starvation of children. So, we're publicly stating to the Israeli Government we think this is a bad decision and we're strongly opposed to it.
Karvelas: And do you think it breaks international law?
Assistant Minister: Look, it potentially does. That's a matter for the International Court of Justice to determine. Certainly, the withholding of humanitarian aid and particularly food from a population is a breach of international law. And we've said that publicly. Regarding this decision today that'd be a matter that will be no doubt sought to be looked at by the International Court of Justice. We've always said that Australia is a nation that respects the rules based order and that includes decisions of the International Court of Justice. And we've called on the Netanyahu Government to respect those decisions in the past.
Karvelas: In the Netanyahu Government's demands in relation to its next phase of the war effort. It says it doesn't want the Palestinian Authority involved. That runs contrary to what your government has said about the Palestinian Authority reforming, holding elections. What are your reflections on Israel's demand that the Palestinian Authority not be allowed to govern Gaza?
Assistant Minister: Look, we've certainly said that we don't want Hamas involved as a listed terrorist organisation in Australia and that Hamas needs to demilitarise. And that's one of the points that's been put by the Netanyahu Government that we agree with in respect of the Palestinian Authority. There's been, there's been comments by leaders of the Palestinian Authority that the government has agreed with in respect of disarming Hamas and ensuring that there are democratic elections in Gaza in the future. But we've always said that Australia alone, working on these issues doesn't have the same force and the same effectiveness as working through international partners. And that's what we’ve sought to do.
Karvelas: But just to be clear you're opposed to this requirement that Israel has announced that the Palestinian Authority is excluded from a potential government.
Assistant Minister: Look we're seeking to work on these issues with international partners. We see this as a unique opportunity for the world to come together to get a lasting peace and a lasting solution that involves two states. And ultimately, we'd like to see Israel part of that agreement to achieve that lasting peace. How we get there is being worked out at the moment and negotiated.
Karvelas. So, recognition has also been put on the agenda by your government. Does this announcement from the Netanyahu Government accelerate your government's moves towards recognition?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've been working with those international partners. We think that it's a pretty unique opportunity for the world to come together. And if you're going to get a lasting solution to this and one that ensures a permanent ceasefire, the release of hostages, an eventual two state solution that finally tries to bring this century old conflict to an end, that the international community has to be involved –
Karvelas. So, this doesn't hasten your push for Palestinian statehood?
Assistant Minister: Look, it doesn't stop the negotiations and the conversations that have been occurring between Australia and nations like France –
Karvelas: No, but does it change them is the big question. Because the other day Penny Wong said if you don't act quickly that there won't be any Palestine to recognise. We're now looking at the potential occupation of Gaza as announced by the Netanyahu Cabinet. Doesn't that mean that there is a sense of urgency based on the metrics that the Foreign Minister set out the other day?
Assistant Minister: Well, the Foreign Minister is correct that if things continue the way they are, then there wouldn't be a Palestinian state to recognise. And that's not an outcome that our government wants.
Karvelas. So, do you want to get ahead of it then? Because things are continuing down that trajectory? I mean, it's quite clear from the announcement out of Israel.
Assistant Minister: And that's why we've said that this decision by the government today in Israel is a setback for that. But we want to work through those international organisations and with our partner nations on trying to achieve that effective outcome through international action. We think that that's the best way to get a lasting peace and finally, a two state solution.
Karvelas: Minister, I just want to ask you about another issue that's certainly been in the news today. There are reports that you've ordered the minimum test score for someone to have functional English skills to be lowered for some exams that migrants can take to prove their proficiency. The Opposition has been critical of this. Can you explain the changes that you've called for?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, I can certainly explain that. And I can assure members of the public that there has been no reduction whatsoever in the English language proficiencies that are required, particularly for skilled visas in Australia. There are a number of providers that provide English language testing capacity for the Australian Government to use in assessing whether or not an applicant has the requisite English language capacity. What we've done is we've standardised a means for those tests to be looked at and we get a standard outcome. So, there's been no reduction whatsoever –
Karvelas: There is a lower score for some of the tests, though, that you can achieve now right?
Assistant Minister: But that means that there's a standardisation across those providers. So, a score with one provider means the same score as another provider because of the changes that we've made. But it also means that there's been no reduction in the English language proficiency required for someone to enter Australia under a skilled visa.
Karvelas: Minister, thank you for joining us this afternoon.
Assistant Minister: Thank you, Patricia.