Andrew Clennell, Host: Joining me live at the desk now is Assistant Foreign Affairs and Assistant Immigration Minister Matt Thistlethwaite, who joins me not only on Father's Day, but his birthday. So, thanks, where would you rather spend your birthday than Sunday Agenda, Matt Thistlethwaite? But on a serious note, let's get a reaction to that. I mean, J.D. Vance said the other day it wasn't a war. Sure looks like a war to me.
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: Well, we'd prefer to see a de‑escalation rather than an increase in conflict. And these tit‑for‑tat retaliations aren't good because we want this conflict to reduce rather than escalate. It's gone on for too long now and the Australian people are paying for this, Andrew, at the petrol bowser and through their grocery prices. It's wreaked havoc on the international economy and Australia hasn't been immune to that. So, we'd prefer to see de‑escalation, the negotiation of a permanent ceasefire and the Strait of Hormuz reopened permanently so normal shipping can resume and we take this pressure off cost of living.
Clennell: Well, we know the PM had a conversation with Donald Trump a couple of weeks back. Did he have any luck in pushing that message forward?
Assistant Minister: Well, the PM raised this issue, as have many international leaders, with Donald Trump. And we hope that the parties can see sense and get around the negotiation table and try and nut out a permanent ceasefire that sees the Strait reopen and normal shipping resume to take pressure off cost of living for Australians.
Clennell: Can I ask for an update on Nepal? Where is the government at in terms of missing Australians? How many do we believe have died now or may have died?
Assistant Minister: 36 Australians still remain unaccounted for. We haven't got any confirmed deaths yet. We're hopeful that we'll be able to locate and relocate as many of those as we possibly can. Obviously, the longer this goes on, the more difficult that becomes. But there are glimmers of hope. We managed to locate seven Australians this week. Two people have just been rescued from the Trishuli Hydropower Tunnel, which is positive news. And we've sent 47 Australian personnel to the region to assist with the rescue and recovery. And we're sending a further seven this week. So, we're doing everything we can to try and locate those Australians that are missing.
Clennell: And what are they, are they operating drones, I read, material like that?
Assistant Minister: There's a team of 15 specialist drone operators from the NSW and Queensland fire services. They've just arrived in Kathmandu. So, they'll travel into the region and they'll work with the Nepalese authorities, using their expertise and their skills to try and locate not only those Australians but anyone else that's missing as well.
Clennell: Now the Prime Minister's come back from the Pacific Islands Forum, with several leaders missing. How concerning was that? That China still looms large over the region and that might have discouraged leaders from attending the forum.
Assistant Minister: Well, obviously the Pacific Islands Forum is made up of 18 nations. They're all generally democracies. They make their own decisions regarding their sovereignty and their diplomatic relations. So, some of those Pacific nations have diplomatic relations with China, others have them with Taiwan. That's a matter for those nations. We've said that there is strategic competition in the Pacific and that's why Australia supports the notion of the one Blue Pacific, where Pacific nations come together and find their peace and security by working together. And that's what came out of the Pacific leaders’ statement this week, which reiterated our concern about China's intercontinental ballistic missile test in July, calling for more notice for that, but importantly also highlighting the devastating effects that climate change is having on the Pacific and calling for stronger action.
Clennell: Are you fearful the Solomon Islands leader, Matthew Wale, could get rolled this week and that the country's focus could become more pro‑China under Manasseh Maelenga if he gets the job?
Assistant Minister: Well, that's a matter for the people of Solomon Islands, for their parliament. He obviously went back because he needed to deal with an issue that was going on within his parliament. They're sovereign nations; they make their own decisions.
Clennell: Is it a matter of concern though?
Assistant Minister: Well, it's a matter for them. We're a nation that has good relations with most, if not all, of our Pacific neighbours and we work with them to ensure that we bring peace and stability to the region.
Clennell: This Fiji-Tuvalu pre‑COP Summit, Australia spending $20 million on organising. Not exactly a star‑studded cast at the moment, is the criticism. We're looking at leaders apart from the Pacific leaders who haven't confirmed from Antigua and Barbuda, Cabo Verde, Thailand, the Maldives and Timor‑Leste. Any advance on that? Any hope from the Australian government that you'll get a few heavier hitters than that?
Assistant Minister: Whenever I meet with a Pacific leader, Andrew, their number one issue is always climate change. They say to us, you guys see climate change as something that's going to affect you in the future; it's hurting us now, it's destroying crops, it's salinising our wells, it's inundating our infrastructure and we need strong action now. So, really what we've done with this pre‑COP is listen to what our Pacific neighbours have been saying and try to get the attention of the Northern Hemisphere leaders to come down to the Pacific and just see how urgent --
Clennell: But they're not coming.
Assistant Minister: Climate change is --
Clennell: They're not going to come.
Assistant Minister: It's early days yet and we think that as long as we get representatives from most of those nations, be they leaders, be they ministers, be they officials, the important thing is --
Clennell: How's that?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've got some that are confirmed and we're hopeful of getting more and we're going to work to ensure that --
Clennell: Can you say which nations have confirmed some sort of representatives?
Assistant Minister: Well, the ones that you've just read out. And we want to make sure that --
Clennell: What about Northern Hemisphere countries or heavy‑hitting countries? Will it be a failure if you don't get decent countries attending?
Assistant Minister: No, it won't. For this reason. We're listening to what our Pacific neighbours are telling us and we're working as hard as we possibly can to support them. And this is something that they've requested for many, many years. We're listening and we're doing what they want. Now, we'll try as hard as we can. Whether or not we get leaders there is up to those individual nations, but we're going to do everything we can to support our Pacific neighbours, to highlight the urgency of climate change and what an existential threat it is for them.
Clennell: We're still waiting for Tony Burke's immigration announcement. As well as foreign affairs, you've got the immigration job. Can you confirm, because I've heard this as well, there was a report in The Saturday Paper, that it's Treasurer Jim Chalmers who's holding up that announcement in the sense that he sees massive hits to the Budget from some of the Burke proposals?
Assistant Minister: Well, I'm not a member of Cabinet and I don't discuss Cabinet deliberations, obviously. But what we're trying to do is ensure that we have a migration system that works for Australians. The big problem that we've had over the last decade is people abusing the system, people who come on temporary visas and overstay and get into the merits review system or the judicial review system and don't leave when they are supposed to. And those numbers have increased over the last decade. The previous government didn't do anything about it. We're determined to fix those integrity issues and that's what many of these measures go to.
Clennell: Are you aware, though, of tension between the Treasurer and the Home Affairs Minister on this issue?
Assistant Minister: I'm not aware of any tension between the Treasurer and the Home Affairs Minister on this issue, and I won't go into the Cabinet deliberations. But we're working as a team to make sure that we get these changes right. We want a system --
Clennell: When's it going to happen? I mean, he booked the Press Club, Tony Burke. It's now nearly a month later. No sign of anything.
Assistant Minister: Well, we need to do further work on the proposal.
Clennell: Do you have any advice on how long that might take?
Assistant Minister: I can't confirm how long it's going to take because there's a process that's going on through the Cabinet and we make sure that we do things properly and that we follow due process. And when those reforms are ready to be announced, they will be. They'll go to the Parliament, there'll be scrutiny of them, people will have the opportunity to comment on them and then we will implement.
Clennell: So, you'll need legislation to enforce some of this, is that what you're saying?
Assistant Minister: Some of it may require legislation. That's still to be deliberated on and decided. What we're trying to do here is make sure that we get the balance right so that we have a migration system that supports the needs of employers, particularly those in rural and regional areas where there's acute skill shortages, but at the same time upholds the integrity of the system and ensures that we meet our net overseas migration targets that we've outlined in the Budget.
Clennell: Isn't the legislation partly about, as I reported last week, stopping families of students from coming here, or so many families? Is that one thing under consideration?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've made some changes to the ministerial direction around family visas, prioritising those that are onshore rather than offshore and in the skilled space as well. We've got huge backlogs of people who've applied for those visas that are already onshore. So, we're prioritising the processing of them compared to people who are offshore. That reduces the backlog here, but it also ensures that we meet our net overseas migration targets over time.
Clennell: But will you be legislating so families of students perhaps can't come here? There's less of these supporting visas?
Assistant Minister: Well, there's already a ministerial direction that supports that for people who are on --
Clennell: There's not legislation on top?
Assistant Minister: There's been nothing that's decided on that yet. That's still being worked on by the Cabinet.
Clennell: Alright, well, there were a record number of refusals of student visa applications last month. Is this a sign that the government minister is seeking to implement these net migration cuts by stealth, even ahead of any such announcement?
Assistant Minister: That's about improving the integrity in the system. As I said earlier, these are issues that have been ignored for the last decade and have built up over time. So, unfortunately, we've had cases where quite a few people come on student visas, get here, then don't do the course and claim protection. That's an integrity issue. We need to fix that to make sure that if someone is coming to study in Australia, they meet the genuine student requirement under that visa and the conditions of that visa. So, they're the measures that we're putting in place to improve the integrity in the system.
Clennell: Let me ask about the opposition's tobacco excise proposal. Chris Minns is someone, the NSW Labor Premier, who wants to see a cut in tobacco excise. Is there any world where you could consider a cut in excise?
Assistant Minister: We don't believe that that's appropriate. I mean, if you look at when I was a kid, a lot of Australians smoked. It was generally accepted that when you went out to a restaurant or something, everyone was smoking. But because we've made changes in public health initiatives, one of those being the increase in the excise to increase the cost of it, we've got smoking rates down in Australia. So, it means we're a much healthier society, we're getting better living‑standards outcomes, we're reducing the burden on the health care system and at the same time we're making sure that not as many Australians are smoking. So, that's a better public health outcome.
Clennell: You've got organised crime running rampant, you've got Angus Taylor saying that 80% of smokes being bought are illegal. And you've got Treasury in the Budget saying revenue's gone down because there's so many illegal smokes being sold. I mean, there comes a price point where it becomes a sort of negative impact, doesn't it?
Assistant Minister: Well, all of the evidence is that the reduction in the excise won't reduce that, that it won't have an effect on transnational crime. What's important is stronger enforcement and we're working with the states to ensure that there are more people working on this. I've got Port Botany in my electorate. I've been out to the container X‑ray facility where the staff there do a great job and they're intercepting, on an almost daily basis, hauls of illegal cigarettes that are trying to be brought into Australia. So, we're putting in place better policing and enforcement mechanisms to tackle what has been a difficult problem.
Clennell: Angus Taylor wants to put people in jail for up to a year if they burn the flag. What do you make of that?
Assistant Minister: Well, I agree with John Howard that this is unnecessary, that there's been several attempts over the last 10 years, or longer than that, 30 years, around this issue and it may impinge on Australians’ freedom of expression and their freedom of speech. The other point to make, I think, is that we have pretty strong criminal laws where people can be charged if they're inciting violence in rallies and things like that, where they do attempt to burn the flag and put people in danger. And there have been people arrested for that, where they've burnt flags and they've put people in danger. So, we don't think that this is necessary. Our focus, Andrew, in terms of legislation in the Parliament, is supporting Australians with their cost of living, boosting Medicare and making housing more affordable.
Clennell: What do you think he's doing, Angus Taylor? Why do you think he's putting this proposal forward?
Assistant Minister: I think that there's a bit of an element of desperation there, trying to chase One Nation and further to the right and to capture some of those votes. It's been tried on several occasions over many, many years. The Parliament's generally always rejected it because of the notion of upholding freedom of speech for Australians and that freedom of political expression.
Clennell: Let's talk about the digital duty of care. Not much time left, but can you confirm anything I've reported this morning or just give a summary of where this is at? I'm talking about an opt‑in algorithm feature that social media companies would have to carry fines of up to $100 million if social media leads people into harmful areas like suicidal ideation, all this sort of stuff. Is that broadly what we're looking at with these reforms?
Assistant Minister: Well, we know that young people are being exposed to violent material, misogynistic material online, particularly young men. And we think that that's a problem. And many Australian parents have said that they're concerned about their children being exposed to this material. And we think that the platforms have a responsibility to try and keep young Australian kids safe. So, we are looking at a digital duty of care to ensure that the platforms have responsibility for keeping the users of their platforms safe, particularly younger Australians. And we're not afraid to take action against these platforms. We were the first nation in the world to introduce the ban for under‑16s. It's been taken up by many, many nations now. So, we think that the platforms have a duty of care and we won't be afraid to legislate to make sure that those outcomes are achieved.
Clennell: Angus Taylor says it's about censoring the Internet, or that's his fear. What do you say to that?
Assistant Minister: Well, I don't think that's correct, because young Australians shouldn't be exposed to violent behaviour that results in disrespect for women, that results in some of the shocking scenarios that we've seen around online pornography that's producing some pretty devastating consequences for many Australian families. So, we think that it's reasonable and indeed it's what parents expect, that we put in place laws that keep their children safe when they're online.
Clennell: Just in five seconds, what do you think of Matt Canavan saying the Respectful Relationships program can send people the way of Andrew Tate?
Assistant Minister: It's not woke to teach respect for women in our education system.
Clennell: Matt Thistlethwaite, thanks so much for your time.
Assistant Minister: Thanks Andrew.