Peter Stefanovic, host: Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu had a few choice words for Australia overnight, that its advocacy of a Palestinian state was shameful. It again points to the tension that exists between our relationship with Israel at the moment. Joining us live now is the Assistant Foreign Minister, Matt Thistlethwaite, and the Liberal Senate, Maria Kovacic. Good morning to you both. So, I'll start with you, Matt, on this this morning. What's the government's response to these comments from Netanyahu overnight?
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: Pete, on the weekend, Australia was one of nine nations, and the EU representative on foreign affairs, that put out a statement condemning the actions of the Netanyahu Government in seeking to take over Gaza City. We believe that that's moving in the opposite direction of the way the world wants the Israeli Government to move, towards peace and the release of hostages. I think the second point is that tens of thousands of Israelis marched in the streets and protested on the weekend against their government. They're saying enough is enough, that the starvation, the continued holding of hostages by Hamas has to stop, and the only way to work towards that is to work towards a ceasefire that involves the release of those hostages and takes this opportunity to permanently try and resolve this issue.
Stefanovic: Pretty damning, though, from a foreign leader, from an ally, though, to say that your actions or our government's actions are shameful. Do you have a response to his specific wording, his specific sledge on the Australian government?
Assistant Minister: Look, look, Australia is a supporter of the nation of Israel. We certainly recognise Israel's right to exist, but we also want peace. And I think that the world has been shocked by the images of children starving to death and that they've had enough and that they see that the actions of the Netanyahu Government have contributed to that and we want to see an end to that. So, obviously we want to have a good relationship with the Israeli government. But we're going to stand up for the values upon which Australian society is based, and those are fairness and ensuring that people are fed and that children can live their lives.
Stefanovic: So, that was part of the Prime Minister's attack. The Israeli Prime Minister's is about those pictures. So, are we, along with other countries, being duped by Hamas propaganda, including what Netanyahu says are not actually starving children?
Assistant Minister: I think that the images speak for themselves, Pete.
Stefanovic: So, the Prime Minister's wrong?
Assistant Minister: You can't make up an image like that of children starving. And we've all seen the footage on the nightly news of people desperate for food. You only get to that situation where it's life and death whether you eat or not. And I think that you can't make those images up, and so they speak for themselves.
Stefanovic: So, the Prime Minister's wrong?
Assistant Minister: Well, we certainly believe, yeah, that those images speak for themselves, that there is starvation going on in Gaza and that the deliberate withholding of food by a government potentially breaches international law.
Stefanovic: Ok, Maria, you've been patient. Thank you. First of all, let's back things up to Prime Minister Netanyahu's comments about our government. Said the advocacy of a Palestinian state is, quote, shameful. Pretty damning, as I said to Matt there, from a foreign leader of an ally, to say that about our government. But what's your response to that first of all?
Maria Kovacic, Liberal Senator For NSW: I would say we want to see three things. We want to see people fed, we want to see the hostages released, and we want to see an end to this conflict where the concern is for us. And what the government really needs to explain to, to Australians, is why they are looking to potentially recognise the state of Palestine while Hamas, a known terrorist organisation, a listed terrorist organisation in this country, is still in charge in Gaza. And that represents a real concern, effectively, of negotiating with terrorists. You know, there is the discussion around food, and that is legitimate, but we also have to acknowledge and understand that Hamas themselves are leveraging that food supply for their own benefit in order to do what it is that they're trying to do, which is to ensure that Israel is blamed for what is going on there and that they are able to effectively run through and install themselves as some form of government in Palestine. And we cannot have that under any circumstances whatsoever. We cannot forget who they are and what they're doing and the fact that they have absolutely refused to hand over the Israeli hostages and that they also want the destruction of the state of Israel.
Stefanovic: So, as Matt points out, pictures do speak for themselves. So, when Prime Minister Netanyahu said overnight that, you know, basically countries are getting duped by Hamas propaganda, he mentioned that some, perhaps some, not all of the pictures are not of starving children. Do you think he's wrong?
Kovacic: Well, I don't know, and none of us know the answer to that. But what we need to do is actually to be thinking critically as to what is going on over there. And just because Hamas is providing one piece of information, that does not mean that that is entirely accurate. We also know that they have been known historically to withhold aid. So, we have to understand whether the aid that's being provided is actually going into the hands of Gazans that desperately need it or whether it's been controlled and manipulated by Hamas a terrorist organisation.
Stefanovic: Well, on that point, Matt, do you agree with that? You know, it's not all black and white when it comes to the distribution of aid in Gaza. Do you agree with Maria's point and a lot of points that are suggested overseas too, that Hamas is actually withholding aid, that it's being sold in markets for inflated prices?
Assistant Minister: Yeah, Hamas is an evil organisation. They've been involved in terrorist activities and that's why they're a prescribed terrorist organisation here in Australia. But we've also been a nation that has always stood for upholding the rules based order and international law. And international law is very clear that the deliberate withholding of food to people to bring on starvation is a breach of international law. And Australia cannot stand for that. And the system that's been put in place by the Netanyahu Government and the United States is not working and it's resulting in the death and the starvation of a population. And that needs to stop. And that's why I think the world has come together to say enough is enough, there's got to be a resolution to this. And we see eventually that that has to involve two states living securely side by side behind internationally recognised borders.
Stefanovic: I think we were talking about this last week, Matt, about a potential phone call between Anthony Albanese and Benjamin Netanyahu. I mean, what this attack overnight shows that there is this huge gulf in our relationship at the moment, plenty of friction there. What are the chances of getting this call?
Assistant Minister: Well, our Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese stands ready to talk to Benjamin Netanyahu. We've always been a supporter of the state of Israel and we want to work together with that nation. But at the end of the day, as I said, we will always stand up for upholding international law and we're not alone in doing that. Several nations joined us on the weekend in making that statement to ensure that we do uphold international law. And I think that a substantial proportion of the Israeli population agrees with that notion because they were marching in the streets on the weekend.
Stefanovic: How would you define our relationship with Israel at the moment, Maria?
Kovacic: Well, I think it's pretty similar to the relationship that the Prime Minister has with some of his other global counterparts in that he's having a lot of trouble getting phone calls. Maybe he needs to have a look at how he's conducting his relationships and a way to have them in a way that is actually more collaborative and where he can have those open discussions. And that doesn't mean always being in agreeance with someone, but actually being able to have that conversation is important, and here we see that as a problem yet again.
Stefanovic: All right, Maria and Matt, good to chat as always. We'll talk to you next week.