Olivia Caisley, host: To unpack this and more, Assistant Foreign Minister Matt Thistlethwaite is with us now. Look, we've heard confirmation now about Kevin Rudd's meeting with Donald Trump. Sources within the government tell me this interaction, it wasn't particularly substantive, but also didn't go particularly well too. Do you think it's time to consider that perhaps Mr Rudd's previous disparaging remarks, perhaps about the United States how might, or the President, I should say, might have been perceived poorly by the White House?
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: G'day, Olivia. I don't think you can make that claim at all. There's nothing unusual about an Ambassador or a High Commissioner meeting with the head of state in the country that they are working in. And this meeting occurred in the ordinary course. As the Prime Minister said, it wasn't secret, it was disclosed at the time and it would have been part of the normal bilateral relationship. Ambassador Rudd is doing a great job in Washington. I was in Washington in mid-2024 as part of an Australia-US leadership dialogue and I worked with Ambassador Rudd. We held meetings at the Capitol with Republican representatives, with Democrats, principally about AUKUS and strengthening the bilateral security relationship and defence relationship. And Ambassador Rudd, I was very impressed by the breadth and depth of the contacts and the relationships that he's established in the United States. And that's what being a good ambassador is all about.
Caisley: Well, there's no doubting Kevin Rudd's credentials in foreign affairs. He's a total gun in that area. But we also know the US President doesn't like criticism. At what point do you have to, I guess, prioritise open diplomatic channels over potential personality clashes?
Assistant Minister: Well, I think the proof's in the pudding. Obviously, the Trump administration has announced a series of tariffs on all of its trading partners across the world, but no one has fared better than Australia. Australia has the minimum level of tariffs that have been imposed on our goods. And I think that that is in no small part due to the strong relationship that Australia has, government to government, people to people, and the work of our Ambassador in Washington DC. So, the proof's in the pudding. We've done pretty well, relatively speaking, when it comes to the rest of the world out of the Trump administration on their tariffs. Now, obviously we disagree with the approach that the Trump administration has taken with tariffs. No one wins from tariffs. Their taxes on goods and the American consumers are going to pay more --
Caisley: Okay --
Assistant Minister: And obviously we'd like to see them removed, but no one's done better than Australia.
Caisley: I will drill down into the specifics of the tariffs in a second. But you know, you say the proofs in the pudding, but we still haven't yet managed to see a one-on-one meeting between Donald Trump and Anthony Albanese. Isn't that a bit of a concern?
Assistant Minister: Well, there was a meeting that was scheduled between the Prime Minister and the American President during the G7 meeting, but unfortunately the President had to leave to go and deal with the situation in Iran. Now, Australia can't be blamed for that. That's not the Prime Minister's fault. That's the ordinary course of things that happen in diplomatic relations. And Australia wasn't the only country that missed out on a meeting with the President. So, there's continual relations between ministers, between our diplomats at the moment in Australia. You've got one of the largest ever rotations of US Marines in the north of Australia that are training as part of their annual rotation of Marines that come here. You're going to have one of the largest contingent of US troops participating in Talisman Sabre. So, the defence relationship has never been stronger, and I think that that's something we need to remind ourselves of.
Caisley: Ok, so on pharmaceuticals, if we just go back to tariffs. So, the US threatening potentially tariffs of up to 200%, I should say, on Aussie medicines. Treasurer Jim Chalmers earlier in the week made it pretty clear that the PBS, or Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, isn't on the table. Do you consider those to be the actions of an ally?
Assistant Minister: Well, we want to try and negotiate with the United States to remove those tariffs, but there are certain things that are off bounds that we're not going to negotiate over, and one of those is the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. When you look at the Australian healthcare system, there's two fundamental foundations, Medicare and the PBS. They have produced one of the best healthcare systems in the world, where Australians enjoy relatively high living standards and healthier outcomes compared to the rest of the world. We're not going to jeopardise that in any way. So, we've said we're happy to negotiate on other issues, but the PBS is off the table.
Caisley: We did hear from the Treasurer the other day. He was saying that he had sought urgent advice on those tariffs. Has the government yet received that advice? And what did it say?
Assistant Minister: That's something that you'll have to ask the Treasurer. I haven't received any advice in that regard. Obviously, we're still waiting to see what the tariffs will mean for pharmaceutical exports. The President of the United States has indicated that it'll take 12 months to implement those tariffs, so there's a bit of time for that. But once again, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, the foundation of Australia's health care system, will not be up for negotiation.
Caisley: But we've seen today as well, the Trump administration threatening Canada with more tariffs. I believe it was with 35%. How concerned is the government more generally about the potential imposition or this sort of rolling threat of tariffs coming in to impact the Aussie economy?
Assistant Minister: Obviously, it is concerning. You're starting to see different decisions being made for different countries. And obviously, if you're a Canadian exporter into the United States, it's not good news for you. If you're an American consumer buying Canadian imports, the cost of those imports is going to go up. That's the point that we've been trying to make. No one wins from tariffs. But I again reiterate the point, a 10% tariff on Australian goods and services as a baseline is a better outcome than any other nation. We'd like that to be removed. But relatively speaking, it's a better outcome than most nations.
Caisley: We've seen the Prime Minister and Labor making affordable child care a personal legacy and goal. But we have seen deep flaws in the system. The Federal Government both funds and publicly champions given, I guess, the Commonwealth leverage over other state regulated areas like health and education, why aren't stronger safeguards built into childcare funding agreements? And do you think that they should be?
Assistant Minister: Well, when we were last in government, we improved the safety standards in childcare centres, unfortunately, on the back of a number of unfortunate deaths of children. We strengthened the ratios of carers to children and a number of other measures. Now we've had this shocking situation in Melbourne, which is every parent's worst nightmare, and obviously we're going to have to do more. And we've realised that as a government, the Education Minister Jason Clare, has convened a meeting of state education Ministers. That was the major topic of discussion. And when we go back, there'll no doubt be further regulatory reform that we'll look at. We know we're going to need to strengthen the regulations. We're going to have to look at things such as a register of childcare workers, greater checks on their backgrounds and the like. And we'll do what it takes to ensure the safety of children and the welfare of parents and the ease of parents when they leave their kids in a childcare centre throughout Australia
Caisley: Matt Thistlethwaite, thanks so much for your time.
Assistant Minister: Thanks Olivia.