Peter Stefanovic, host: Let's get some immediate reaction to that with the Assistant Foreign Minister. Jono, thank you so much. Could Australia follow Canada's lead here, Matt Thistlethwaite?
Matt Thistlethwaite, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade: Good morning, Pete. We will look at that issue, but I mean, obviously I think it needs to be in Australia's national interest. So, we make our foreign policy decisions based on principally keeping Australians safe but also acting in our national interest. We recently signed a free trade agreement with the European Union. Both of our parliaments are in the process of ratifying that, that will deliver substantial increases and boosts to exports of Australian products into one of the largest consumer markets in the world. So, we made that decision because it was in Australia's national interest. And we'll consider this proposal on the same vein.
Stefanovic: Any part of it you like so far?
Assistant Minister: Well, obviously Europe is a very large consumer market. They're a very, very important strategic ally for Australia. We've been deepening that relationship. When Ursula von der Leyen came to Australia, the Prime Minister and her signed a security arrangement. Our universities are now starting to collaborate through the horizon fund that Australia's recently gone into. So, we are deepening that engagement. But again, it will be an assessment of whether or not this is in Australia's national interest.
Stefanovic: Alright, let's get to Tony Burke's migration plan. The Minister, as we know, he had the original plan. He was going to do the original speech, then he had to drop it. Then came a series of fiery cabinet meetings that took place. Then came the announcement yesterday. But I am curious, Matt, given all this has happened, how much consultation was actually done with the broader community?
Assistant Minister: Well, there was plenty and that's why it took so long. Tony and I first sat down to discuss this in November last year. And since that time the department's been working on this reforms and there's been a series of meetings, there's been consultation with stakeholder groups regarding some of the issues --
Stefanovic: Which stakeholder groups?
Assistant Minister: Well, I've been sort of consulting with employer associations, I chair the Ministerial Advisory Council on School Migration that includes representatives of farming associations, includes the BCA, the Australia Chamber of Commerce and Industry. The ACTU is represented along with experts who work in this field --
Stefanovic: Well, the tourism sector says there was none.
Assistant Minister: Well, they're members of peak bodies that we do consult with. We know what the concerns have been around migration for some time and that's why we've acted. And it took a bit of time because these are pretty complex reforms. When you make changes to migration, there can be effects throughout the economy, particularly on employment, and we wanted to make sure we got them right.
Stefanovic: So, you say you have consulted with the tourism sector?
Assistant Minister: Indirectly because they're members –
Stefanovic: What does that mean? So you haven’t?
Assistant Minister: Well, they're members of business associations that we have been consulting with. And I certainly know that Don Farrell as Tourism Minister, he always consults with the tourism sector. And we've gone as widely as we possibly could to consult with as many businesses as we possibly could.
Stefanovic: Okay. Has this policy been partly borrowed from One Nation though, and then rushed once you didn't get Coalition support?
Assistant Minister: No, it's completely different. If you look at the changes that we've made, it's all about ensuring that we deliver the numbers for migration that we've budgeted for in the Budget that we put out in May. And secondly, that we're strengthening the integrity of the system by removing people who don't have the right to remain in Australia because they've overstayed their visa. So, they're the two major elements.
Stefanovic: That’s One Nation's plan.
Assistant Minister: Well, it's always been our plan as well. This goes back, Pete, to the migration strategy that we put in place --
Stefanovic: Why are they still here then, if it's always been your plan?
Assistant Minister: Well, we've been removing people. I know that because I sign off on the removals. We do remove people. But what we're committing to here is additional resources. There'll be an additional 100 officers that will work and there'll be an additional 250 beds in detention centres for those people who overstayed. In 2015, the previous government changed the system so that mainly people that were detained were those that had committed crimes. Now, anyone that overstays their visa, if you overstay a tourist visa, you overstay a student visa, you'll be picked up and you'll spend a few nights in a detention centre, and we think that that will deter a lot of people from overstaying --
Stefanovic: Is there enough to house 77,000 though?
Assistant Minister: Obviously we're not going to that number. We've increased the bed numbers to 250 --
Stefanovic: But that's how many are overstaying.
Assistant Minister: Yeah, but this is the issue, Pete, this is the deterrence value of it. A lot of those people are overstaying on tourist visas, on student visas and others, and there's been no consequence. Since 2015, under the previous government who removed that ability to detain people in that circumstance, there's been no consequence. So, that's why the numbers have gone up to those 77,000. Now there will be a consequence. If you do overstay, you will go into detention and that will have an deterrence value as well. We think that once the word gets around, hey, I overstayed on my tourist visa for a couple of weeks, I got picked up and I spent a couple of weeks in immigration detention, it's not a nice place, I'm going home. Once that gets around, then we think that obviously that deterrence will ensure that people abide by the conditions.
Stefanovic: And do you believe with that said, word might get around in a bad way? Hey, Australia might not be a great place to go and visit, whether as a tourist or whatever?
Assistant Minister: No, I don't think that that will be the case because Australia is a wonderful country to --
Stefanovic: I mean, the tourism sector just said last hour that that could be the case.
Assistant Minister: Well, I dispute that. I don't accept that at all. Because if you look at the numbers of tourists, particularly working holiday makers, that have been coming to Australia over the last decade, they've been steadily increasing --
Stefanovic: Well, that number's about to be slashed.
Assistant Minister: Australia is a stable democracy, we're a beautiful country, we're a nice people, and the numbers indicate that people love coming here --
Stefanovic: So, I agree with all of that. But. But I'm just curious what modelling has been done, because, I mean, the numbers that you just talk about with those visas, that's going to affect backpackers, that's going to be slashed dramatically. So, what model has been done with respect to the farming sector or the hospitality sector who need those backpackers that will now just rely on a ballot?
Assistant Minister: Well, two things. Firstly, we're delivering the numbers that we budgeted for and we announced that in the Budget and there weren't any complaints from the business sector about those numbers when we released them. In fact, a lot of people said, yeah, we think you've got the balance right. Secondly, there are alternate sources of labour for the agricultural sector. So, if you look at most farmers, they would employ a mix of local workers. The domestic workforce, they would employ some international students, they will employ some backpackers, and obviously there'll be people that they are on full time positions. So, there's a mix there and there's the PALM scheme. So, there are alternate sources --
Stefanovic: The net figure's not changing though, Matt. The net figure is still not changing. Now the Coalition, One Nation want to go much lower.
Assistant Minister: The net figure for what? For backpackers?
Stefanovic: No, for total. So, your net figure, what, 225, Coalition, One Nation going a lot harder than that.
Assistant Minister: Yeah, well, we think that again, that's the numbers that we budgeted for. And we did that on the basis of consultation with the states and territories, with the business community around what they need to run the economy. We think that the numbers proposed by One Nation in particular will smash the economy. So, for instance, they're dramatic cuts to the number of students that will mean a significant reduction in national income because international education makes up a significant proportion of our country's GDP. So, if you remove that source of income, that means that the economy won't grow as quickly as it otherwise would and a lot of Australians will lose jobs because the university sector employs a lot of Australians. The second point is, for an electorate like mine, you go down to a place like Coogee, at the restaurants and cafes, the pubs and bars in Coogee, they're all employing international students. You significantly reduce those numbers, you're going to smash those local businesses in an economy like mine, to the detriment of those businesses.
Stefanovic: So, you've never actually reached your migration targets, though. So, how can these numbers be taken seriously?
Assistant Minister: Because we had huge spikes in the wake of COVID, Pete. I think that Covid really changed the game and when the borders reopened, we had large increases in migration. We've worked consistently to get that back down to the budgeted numbers and we're on track to do that. The overseas migration numbers released yesterday down to around 290,000, which means that we are on track to meet those numbers --
Stefanovic: They're last year's numbers, though.
Assistant Minister: They're the numbers that we budgeted for and that's the key thing. It's about providing that surety and consistency for Australian businesses and the Australian people. And we're putting in place the policies to deliver those numbers we budgeted for.
Stefanovic: Ok, there you go. Matt Thistlethwaite, the Assistant Immigration Minister, the Assistant Foreign Minister, appreciate your time as always.