Host: Penny Wong is a South Australian Senator, and she's also the National Foreign Affairs Minister. Senator Penny Wong, good morning.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Morning to you. Morning Rory, morning Sonya, morning Jules. Good to be with you.
Host: Penny Wong, thank you very much for your time, as we talk to you now, how many Australians are on the ground in the Middle East seeking assistance to get out of either Iran or Israel?
Foreign Minister: As you know, this is a very risky situation, the world is facing a very, very difficult situation, a dangerous moment. We have at this stage, and obviously, as I'm speaking to you, I'm sure the numbers will be changing, but we have in excess of 1500 Australians and their families who have registered with us in Iran seeking to assistance to leave, and in excess of 1200 Australians and families who have registered with us in Israel. Obviously, we're really limited at this stage in terms of what we can do to assist because the airspace is closed, so obviously given the military strikes, there's no capacity for people to get civilian aircraft in, it is too risky, and the airspace is closed. We have taken the opportunity to get a small group of Australians out of Israel through a land border crossing. We are seeking to try and do more of that over the next 24 hours.
Host: And is that a collaborative effort with other countries?
Foreign Minister: Look, we are obviously coordinating with like-mindeds. We're all facing the same situation, which is we've been hoping to get the capacity for aircraft to get in and out, but at this stage airports and the airspace is still closed. In Israel we have additional options, whereas in Iran it is very difficult. The government's advice remains leave if it is safe to do so, if it is not safe to do so, shelter in place.
Host: Do you have other warnings around surrounding countries?
Foreign Minister: Look, we think carefully about our travel advice, and obviously Israel and Iran are do not travel. We have various levels of travel advice for different countries. I would really urge Australians to make sure they look at travel advice when making decisions about travel. For example, prior to the conflict breaking out, we were already advising reconsider your need to travel to Israel. So we do say to Australians, this is a volatile time in the world. We work to bring you the best travel advice we can, taking into account all the information we have, so please look for that.
Host: For anyone traveling at the moment, is there a heightened risk, and is that reflected in the warnings?
Foreign Minister: We always try to reflect the best security advice and reflect that in our travel advice. Sonya, but there's no doubt we are facing a much more volatile world at the moment, a much more dangerous moment at this point in the Middle East. We have wars in Europe, ongoing war in Ukraine as a consequence of Russia's illegal and immoral invasion, and we have, obviously, conflict in the Middle East, so it is a volatile time.
Host: Minister, you say that the world is in a dangerous moment. What is, what is your message to the key players involved here when it comes to this particular moment, namely, what's happening in Iran, in Israel and then also the United States?
Foreign Minister: Well, what we will say, alongside many others, is we want to see a de-escalation. We want to see dialogue. We want to see diplomacy. Now, Iran must come to the table. It must stop any nuclear weapons program. That is the fastest path out of the danger the world faces. I think that is clear.
Host: Do you have any information on whether the US is considering joining this conflict? And if they did, would you expect a heads up?
Foreign Minister: Look, the United States will make its decisions. Obviously, people will have read and seen what is public, including the statements of President Trump. That is why I am saying we do face as a globe, a dangerous moment. That's why we join with others for de-escalation, dialogue, and diplomacy. And we are all saying to Iran, stop any nuclear weapons program, come to the table, it is the fastest path out of this conflict.
Host: Notwithstanding that message, Australia has been a long-term ally of the United States. If the United States chooses to get involved in the way that is being speculated, what will Australia do? Will we follow?
Foreign Minister: Look, I think you would know that we are not a central player in the Middle East, and I've been saying that for some time.
Host: We did go to Iraq though?
Foreign Minister: Well, again, what I'd say is we're not a central player, and we are with many other countries making the same sorts of statements that I've made today and have for some time and my focus at the moment, frankly, as the Foreign Minister is on what we can do to assist Australians in the region.
Host: Do you have reservations about some of the posturing coming out of the US administration?
Foreign Minister: Look, I'm not going to get into commentary on the US administration. They are obviously making their own decisions, and I think we all understand the pressure that is being applied to the Iranian regime currently, and the fastest way out of this escalatory risk is for Iran to come to the table, make clear it will stop its nuclear weapons program, any nuclear weapons program, and whether we see a return to dialogue, de-escalation and diplomacy.
Host: You say we're not a central player in the Middle East, but can you see a role for Australia in any form in this conflict as it unfolds?
Foreign Minister: Look, we're not a central player in this and I'm not going to go further than that, Sonya. As I said, my focus is really, at the moment on how do we get, what assistance can we provide to Australians in very difficult circumstances.
Host: You're listening to Penny Wong, she's a Foreign Minister and, of course, a Senator here for South Australia with Jules Schiller, Sonya Feldhoff and Rory McClaren on ABC 891. Minister, can I ask you, you said it's a dangerous moment, and many people are either trying to avoid news of this because they're a bit rattled, or they're just constantly updating news tickers. I mean, you're far more brief than we are. Can you offer any reassuring words to people who are listening right now and a bit afraid?
Foreign Minister: Well, first I'd just say I understand why people are so worried about this, and I particularly want to speak to people who have friends and family in Israel or Iran or the broader region. I know that Australian communities have strong links through history and migration to many, many people of the region. I know there are people in Australia who are worried about relatives right now. We are very conscious of that. It's a very stressful situation, and I think those communities need all of our support. What we're trying to focus on is, how do we assist as best we can in circumstances where it is very limited what governments can do. We will do what we can, and we will continue to update advice. As I said, the advice for Iran is leave, if it is safe to do so, otherwise shelter in place.
Host: Senator, we know that the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has spent recent days in Canada for the meetings alongside the G7 Summit, there was obviously a meeting that was scheduled to take place between himself and the US President, Donald Trump, and that was cancelled, obviously, when the President went back to Washington, given the changing status of what was happening in the Middle East. Can you provide an update to us as to how far advanced plans are for the Prime Minister to attend the NATO Summit next week?
Foreign Minister: First in relation to the G7 you're correct that the bilateral meeting with the President didn't occur because the President left the G7 to return because of the conflicts of the Middle East. And I think we all understand that. He also could not meet with Prime Minister Modi, the President of South Korea. So we are not alone, and I think we all understand why this occurred. The Prime Minister has said before he left Canada that he was considering whether he should attend NATO. Obviously, we will weigh that up. What I would say is this is a time, very unstable time in the world, conflict in many parts of the world, but we have a war in Europe and a war in the Middle East, and we really need to work with other countries to do all we can to protect peace, security, and stability. So, whether it's the Prime Minister or another senior minister, certainly Australia will be represented, and we will be forward leaning and working with others to protect stability and peace.
Host: Speaking of working with others, as Rory said, we know that meeting was cancelled with the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, your counterpart in the States, Marco Rubio, I know that you were with him at the inauguration. What's your relationship with him like at the moment, Penny Wong? Does he answer your calls? Do you communicate regularly?
Foreign Minister: We engage closely at many levels, and I look forward to engaging with him personally again soon. We also would anticipate that there are various multilateral meetings which will be likely, including Quad meetings where we will be engaging, but I look forward to speaking with him soon.
Host: One of the big issues we were talking about in relation to the Trump-Albanese meeting was about trade and tariffs and all of those sorts of things. Are we unlikely to see any development on that given in the last week, matters of monumental importance, much bigger than those it seems have superseded that.
Foreign Minister: You're right Sonya to say that the perspective is obviously changed at the moment, and the immediate focus is on potential armed conflict and what's going the Middle East. Opposition on tariffs remains the same. We think that the tariffs are not justified, and we think these don't benefit the United States. We'll continue to press that case at every level. Obviously, the other issue that we will be discussing, and continue to discuss with the Americans, is the benefits to the United States and to the UK, as well as Australia, the AUKUS agreement, and I know that's something South Australians are very interested in.
Host: Are you worried about the breakdown of international law? It seems like many of the protocols that have existed over the last 20 to 30 years aren't being honoured anymore. You know, Israel's strike on Iran didn't go through the UN, we have the US acting unilaterally in many ways. Are you concerned about that breakdown?
Foreign Minister: Australia has an interest in making sure we advocate with others for international norms and international law to continue to be the way in which we manage, collectively, how we engage. So, you're right to say this is in the Australian interest. It's why we have been so forward leaning on Russia's invasion, because there you have a permanent member of the Security Council basically tearing up the UN Charter by invading another country. Now, obviously there's always discussions about whether people's view about the relevant international order situation, but I think it's important for Australia to continue to be part of all nations, looking to preserve the institution, the relevant institutions, the United Nations and international norms.
Host: So do you think Israel is upholding international law?
Foreign Minister: Well, look, you know there's no doubt that Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile program is a real threat to international peace and security, and in fact, there are UN Security Council sanctions against Iran for its nuclear activities. We know that the UN nuclear watchdog has declared that Iran is in breach of its non-proliferation obligations, and Iran could comply, should comply. What I would say is, what I've been saying for some time, is, the question is, how do you deal with this in a way that does not increase the risk of regional escalations with all that that means for the people of the region, not just the people of Iran, but all peoples of the region.
Host: And how do you, how do you view Israel's actions in this? What's their role being in that? Because we've got quite a few texts suggesting that Israel is the aggressor here, and that Australia should be calling that out.
Foreign Minister: Well, I've made clear, I think on your Insiders program, obviously Israel has a right to self-defence. I think the point here that we all need to engage in is to continue to call for de-escalation, dialogue and diplomacy, and the fastest way out of this path, out of the danger the world faces, is for Iran to stop any nuclear weapons program and come to the table.
Host: Senator Penny Wong, where do you see this ending?
Foreign Minister: Well, I think there's many people who would like to know the answer to that, but nobody's got a crystal ball. I hope we can find, the world can find a way out of this. Obviously, it's very concerning the situation we are in at the moment. All Australia can do, as I said, we're a long way away, and we're not a central player, is to join with others in calling for those two things, or those two paths, the de-escalation, dialogue, diplomacy and Iran, to stop any nuclear weapons program.
Host: Finally, Penny one more question. Is this your most challenging moment as Foreign Minister?
Foreign Minister: I think I've been asked that a few times since I've become the Foreign Minister. Certainly is very challenging time in the world, isn't it for all of us.
Host: Penny Wong, Foreign Minister and Senator for South Australia. Thank you for your company this morning.
Foreign Minister: Thanks very much.
Host: Appreciate your time.