Sky News, AM Agenda

Laura Jayes, Host: Joining me live now is Assistant Minister for Trade, Tim Ayres. He joins me here in the studio. Just on that first issue, foreign interference. It's something that occupies the minds and work of governments, and it has done for quite some time. You’ve just returned from China. Is there ever any discussion about this?

Tim Ayres, Assistant Trade Minister and Assistant Manufacturing Minister: It's certainly not something, discussion I've engaged in. We've had dialogue with the Chinese Government since the new government was elected. That has included dialogue between the Defence Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and his Chinese counterpart. It's also included a series of meetings between the Foreign Minister and her counterpart, but also defence officials and security officials. So, no doubt some of these issues are being canvassed, but they're not issues that I've either raised or had raised with me, Laura. I mean, basically, I'd say our approach to these issues as a government is to follow the security advice. And that's what we've done. That's what we've done over the series of issues that your report just canvassed and we'll keep doing it.

Laura Jayes: Yeah, really interesting, because you're obviously kicking goals on the trade front. We've seen the discussions about barley hasn't quite happened yet, but we anticipate that those barley tariffs will come off - wines the next thing there. But for decades, we've seen ministers go to China, have to take burner phones, not take their usual laptop, for fear that essentially, that those devices will be hacked into, and China might use some of that private information for their own purposes. I'm assuming none of that has changed, given you're one of a few ministers that have been to China in recent times.

Assistant Minister: Well, we follow the security advice when we travel, and it's not the only country on earth that – where there's security advice and it varies from country to country and different approaches are taken. It's certainly - as I say, we follow the security advice.

Laura Jayes: So, there's still that extreme caution, though, when you go to China.

Assistant Minister: Well, yes, the security advice is followed when we go to China. It's followed in a range of other countries as well. And that's what I think Australians would expect.

Laura Jayes: Yep, they absolutely would. So, let's talk about Mark McGowan's recent trip, or he's still there. Really interesting what happened. So, he hired a Chinese production company to follow him around, essentially. That production company doing their job, sent back some clips of him and there was a hot mic moment where he was criticising Andrew Hastie. Is that a good idea? Even if you try to do that in private, to kind of talk down any Australian politician, even if they're not on your side of politics?

Assistant Minister: I saw the reports of the footage. A hot mic moment can happen to any of us, I guess. it's happened to some other politicians around the place.

Laura Jayes: Look, I'm in the glass house, I realise that.

Assistant Minister: And that's the perils of having a microphone around -

Laura Jayes: But the point is, Mark McGowan was having this private conversation and he was essentially, you know, talking down a fellow Australian politician. Should you do that when you go overseas, like, that's domestic politics?

Assistant Minister: Well, I don't think it's a security scoop. It's a hot mic moment -

Laura Jayes: Looks petty though, doesn’t it? At the very least.

Assistant Minister: Well, I don't pay too much attention to it. There's obviously a bit of Western Australian politics there. Maybe a bit of animus there, some disagreement. That's a natural thing. People say unkind things about each other all of the time. I wish they wouldn't. Everyone should be nice and kind, but this one's been picked up. I'm sure Andrew Hastie is big enough to be able to be able to deal with it.

Laura Jayes: He certainly is. It makes us all look bad, doesn't it? Going overseas and kind of being bitchy about domestic politics. I mean, is that what you really expect a premier to be doing on the world stage in a private or public conversation?

Assistant Minister: Well, I'll give you another example. The previous Trade Minister [Dan Tehan] went to India late last year and said that it was very unlikely that the Australia-India Agreement would get through the Parliament. What –



Laura Jayes: It's a bit different, isn't it? And was he wrong?

Assistant Minister: It's a big issue and it sailed through, Laura. It sailed through because we said we would support the passage of the agreement through the Parliament. Now, sometimes people go overseas and in a big public way, forget their responsibilities to back Team Australia when they're over there, and that was regrettable. Now, this is a hot mic moment. It's much lower status than that. We didn't make much of what was said in the context of the India Agreement then, but it happens from time to time.

Laura Jayes: Okay. Team Australia, though. Is Mark McGowan on Team Australia? Or is he Team Mark?

Assistant Minister: This is a very good development that a series of state premiers have started to engage. It's a sign that some progress has been made. It's not the end of the story. You've raised the talks and the agreement to suspend the WTO appeal on barley. Well, that is a step forward. I mean, I will count progress when bulk handling ships arrive with Australian barley and other products, containers arrive in Australian ports and [indistinct] customs. That is the measure of progress here. Now, we are working assiduously and carefully and consistently, backing the national interest. There's a strategy and a plan here that the Australian Government's been very clear about since we're elected. We're going to keep doing that. But at the end of the day, what I want to see is trade return to normal. That's the bottom line.

Laura Jayes: Can I ask you this question as well, because the WTO looks entirely ineffective or at the very least, way too slow in how it deals with these disputes. Is there anything wrong with what I've just said?

Assistant Minister: Well, the WTO appellate process, we've been very clear about this, could be strengthened – could be strengthened by a series of steps that should be undertaken, including by agreement amongst WTO members about the appellate panel.

Laura Jayes: So, it’s not fit for purpose at the moment?

Assistant Minister: But this is a very important issue for the future of world trade, right, that we need to build confidence in the WTO.

Laura Jayes: And if the WTO is ineffective, what is the point of signing up for a free trade agreement, is my point. You know, it damages getting the public to a point where you celebrate a free trade agreement.

Assistant Minister: Well, two things there, Laura. Number one, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is one of the key global institutions, and Australia has been in a supportive way of the institution advocating for reform.

Laura Jayes: Sure, but the WTO is ineffective as an operator. You have to go around the WTO to actually get progress in barley.

Assistant Minister: Well, it's always the case. Don Farrell made this case. It's always better to deal with these issues by agreement. Having the WTO sitting there as the place that these matters can be dealt with in a legal kind of way is an important backstop. We have matters on foot at the WTO all of the time. And the fact that this has been dealt with more swiftly through a process of consultation and agreement well, let's see how that goes.

Laura Jayes: Okay, we will. Tim Ayres, it's good to talk to you.

Assistant Minister: See you, Laura.

Laura Jayes: Welcome back.

ENDS.